Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Lift pump answers from DC

[Sticks]

Well if we all (ALL 24V owners) keep hitting their little automated system, we could very well clog it, then the IT people would get the ball and maybe push it up the ladder a bit.



Anyone have the name and e-mail address of a desk jockey at DC? Preferably in accounts and controls? You get a bored accountant looking for a promotion to start pushing warranty replacement numbers around, then goes to the big boys and says, "We could save $1. 8 million a year if we move this lift pump thingy to the fuel tank. "



I will send (in writing) copies of a new letter, derived from all the posted letters on this forum, to any and all DC address if anybody has them, other than what is on their website. Local reps as well.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by illflem

This is the place to complain if you want to force a recall -

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Remember recalls are only for problems can cause a safety concern, if you don't say something about a safety issue in your complaint it will be ignored.

Keep your complaint short or it's likely it won't be read, they don't want to know why the lift pump fails, just that it does.

I think you are correct. This is what I just submited to the NHTSA. I think everyone with a failure should complain to the NHTSA because this is a safety issue since the truck can lose power and die on the highway because of this failure. Thanks Illflem



My complaint concerns my vehicle and several thousand others that belong to members of the Turbo diesel Register. The reason I’m writing is in hopes that we can get a safety issue addressed, and corrected once and for all. There has been a repeated trend over several years now concerning the lift pump (Fuel transfer pump) utilized in the 2500/3500 Cummins Diesel application. I am a member of the failed lift pump club and have experienced this lift pump failure on my 2000 3500 Dodge CTD. This failure causes the truck to loose power and sometimes die. This can be life threatening if the truck owner is on the highway towing a loaded trailer. I how own a 2002 3500 CTD and would like this design problem corrected. I am not alone in this concern, there are thousands of 1998. 5 - 2002, 24 valve Cummins turbo diesel owners that are concerned and have complained to Dodge about this problem with no resolution. This can be documented by going to the Turbo diesel register on the web. https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75368&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

 

[Sregorb]

24 so far. I have:



Sregorb

Pit Bull

Scott Rosendahl

rashwor

Diesel Gunner

jcbrown

JCyrbok

Shortshift

Edward

Trexroat

DBeatty

Ncostello

jjohn

dgvg81

RThompson

sticks

Rob Thomas

jvanwaardhuizen

HWhite

Hohn

wrhuston

robobx

100 Proof

dsherman



If you sent a letter/email to DC and aren't shown please lemme know so I can add ya so we have an accurate count. I'm sure there still are plenty more to go also so keep them coming, the more we have the more power our concerns show.



I also sent written letters also to accompany the emails. I agree that the emails are too convenient and easy for the company to disregard (thus the "canned" responses we're getting). BUT, this is how they have designed their company.



We, being good consumers, are trusting in their in-place "system" to work and upchannel the topics that get ALOT of hits. I was hoping that since it was convenient for all of us to send an email that the channel would be our "multiple voice" showing there really is an interest in this and it's not just one person squawking. If that doesn't happen, or if their in-place system is broken/sub-par/etc, we're also hoping that the letters somehow make it to appropriate decision makers that can push for a design review. That's a little more effort so I figured we'd only have the dedicated people willing to write a letter to DC so fewer contacts but a different channel that (hopefully) will get them to respond in writing also. Finally, the "outside influences" such as the NHTSA are good also since, in theory and if they brief their metrics to leadership correctly, someone in the company leadership will hopefully recognize and see a spike of this topic rom multiple sources. Whether or not they pickup the ball on this issue and run with it will speak volumns on the pride (or lack thereof) within the company.

Great job on getting the word out to other boards too! I saw the post over on dieselram.org and if the company doesn't address this soon I'm afraid that they'll have a terrible wake up call compliments of the consumer 'cause the first post in response said, "There is a solution to this lift pump problem; buy a Ford. "



That would seem to be the mentality of a person that has gotten burned by hmmm, say a failure of a product in the past, and would be willing to overlook all the other "better" parts just to get away from a brand. While sad, it does happen, alot, and when enough people walk away and take their money with it'll be the company that suffers for it. All this over a minor, perceived lift pump design flaw that won't/can't be corrected?!?!?! Wow. I'm reminded of the "for the want of a nail the kingdom was lost" tale.



Anyway, enough soapbox, I still have faith in the American business culture. We just have to hope for the best AND WRITE!!



Brian Rogers

 

[Motorhead]

I went to the nhitsa site that illflem gave thje address to and left the following:

The Dodge 2500 and 3500 pickups equiped with the Cummins 24 valve Diesel has a defective fuel pump that can cause problems with the vehicle without notice. The trucks involved are '98. 5 through '02 models. These pumps last as short as 30,000 miles. Dodge knows of this problem and has refused to acknowledge it. This can cause a loss of power un-expectedly and create safety issues. It also leads to a much more consumer costly fix in that if it isn't replaced in time, the injection pump will fail due to lack of fuel flow. The excess fuel flow that the lift pump normally supplies is responsable for cooling and lubricating the fuel injection pump. The replacement of the injection pump can run $3,000. I had to replace mine at 40,000 mi as Dodge won't replace it until it fails or has so low of pressure. As stated above, letting the lift pump completely fail or get into the low pressure range that Dodge will replace it, The damage has already been done to the injection pump or the truck will fail to run or quit unexpectedly.

Thank you for any help you can give us. Sincerely



I STRONGLY believe that we can get alot further with nhitsa than with DC.

 

[kboettcher]

Well I'm from Canada so I sent one to the Canadian Customer Assisstance and the US one, so you can chalk me up for 2

 

[illflem]

Originally posted by Motorhead

I STRONGLY believe that we can get a lot further with nhitsa than with DC.

I am 100% positive that a complaint drive to the NHTSA by TDR members was responsible for the throttle cable recall on 12 valves. DC knew full well of the problem and had an upgraded part, but you had to buy it. The recall came very fast after the complaint drive started, two months tops.



Once again do it here

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ you will need your VIN number.



What they really want to hear about is someone's failed lift pump stalling them in the #4 lane of a six lane 75 mph freeway or in the middle of an busy intersection. What they thrive on is a crash or fire, the more injuries and deaths the better. Just a few such complaints is all it takes to get the recall ball rolling.



I feel you guys are wasting your time with DC, they already sold you a truck, don't really care and will have to be forced by the government to fix their problem. Remember it's probably going to cost them hundreds of million of dollars, they can brush off individuals for a long time far cheaper and are certain that what they consider a minor problem isn't going to send many folks running over to the Ford dealer.



You can also search the NHTSA site to read other complaints submitted on your model year here http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/complaintsearch.cfm

 

[Sticks]

The next biggest cage shaker is the media. Looks like a follow up letter will be sent to the local consumer watchdogs.



"The most attention is given to those that whine like a brat, and throw a tantrum like a 2 year old!"

 

[Pit Bull]

Did a search on the NHTSA site and there were 8 complaints about steering on the 2001 2500 model. Think DC will ever have to address the steering problems? I filed my complaint on the lift pump hope it helps. I also started a thread over at the Diesel Truck Resource asking those members to file a complaint with the NHTSA, mostly positive response to the request. Jack the Administrator thinks it is a waste of time but he has not deleted my thread at this point. Good group of guys on that site as well maybe we will get some action.

 

[illflem]

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/complaintsearch.cfm

If you search the NHSTA site for complaints on your model year click - get summery - read what kind of complaints people make and why most complaints are ignored, most are just not safety related. Heck, one guy was complaining about his hubcap coming off.



Careful wording is of the utmost concern in your complaint if you want them to hear it. All they want to hear about is safety, not how much it cost you.



Best complaint I've read there, to the point and bound to get their attention -

"Truck started on it's own, drove away then the cab burst into flames. I watched it from my porch, no one was in the truck. "



A good complaint for the lift pump would be something similar to this -

Truck just quit while I was driving down the road, I couldn't even pull out of traffic and it wouldn't restart. Dodge Dealer it was towed to said it was a very common problem with this vintage diesel truck and is caused by an inferior fuel transfer pump.

 

[DHawthorne]

I logged into the DOT site provided by Pit Bull on the other Dodge site and made the complaint. Mine failed during exceleration leaving a traffic light and almost put someone into my rear end.



CoastalDav

In Duluth MN with the 5fer

 

[AlFischer]

I agree that DC needs to address this problem. However, we are 16,000 strong and Cummins has recently produced their 1,000,000th engine for DC. We are a tiny minority.

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by Al Fischer

I agree that DC needs to address this problem. However, we are 16,000 strong and Cummins has recently produced their 1,000,000th engine for DC. We are a tiny minority.

Not really as an organized users group this is a very large majority. We are the ones that buy again, we also based on our posts and what we say about DC's product influence many times our number in future buyers. Most people that have the money to buy a $40K truck also have a computer and access to the Internet. Before they make that buying decision they look at what members of groups like the TDR are saying about their ownership experience. DC, if they want to be a long term player needs to address our concerns or the will become the next Studebaker.

 

[illflem]

There maybe only be 16,000 members but most anytime I log on there are at least as many non-members as members browsing the forums. They can make complaints just as well as the folks that pay to be here.



Just a couple more complaints similar to DHawthorne's will be all it takes for the NHSTA to launch an investigation.

What happens is NHSTA will get together with DC and look at the number of failed lift pumps that have been replaced by the dealer. If the numbers are a high enough percentage of the number of trucks sold they will require that DC finally corrects the problem with a new design that replaces the funky pump setup on trucks no matter how old though a recall. Folks out of warranty who have replaced the pump on their own will get their money back if they have a reciept.

 

[radar doctor]

Lift Pumps

Bill I hope your right, Something needs to be done, I almost bought a 03 cause of the Lift Pump Scare. .

 

[jhellmers]

Count me in... .

I'm at 22. 5k and lift pump #5 is dying! No pressure at start and 1-7# after 2 minute idle and 1-7# while driving (continuously changing. ) I'm past the qualifying point for New York lemon law, I just dread all of the hassle involved with the process. It's a shame; the truck is a great machine, but I don't dare even to take a long trip without getting a spare pump "just in case. "

 

[Motorhead]

jhelmers, Have you had the pressure relief valve replaced in the inj pump? My brother had problems with his '01. 5 HO and it was that pressure relief valve. It is in the banjo bolt on the return line.

 

[jhellmers]

Yes. If I remember correctly, it was replaced on lift pump #2 or #3. I'll check my paperwork to verify this. It's weird, cause yesterday, on start-up, the pump pressure came up to 12# (once) when I turned the key to "ON", (not running. ) It didn't drop back down. Almost sounds like the controller is going goofy. It's supposed to run the pump at a lower voltage for a short time and then drop off until start-up. (I think)

 

[Pit Bull]

Originally posted by jhellmers

Yes. If I remember correctly, it was replaced on lift pump #2 or #3. I'll check my paperwork to verify this. It's weird, cause yesterday, on start-up, the pump pressure came up to 12# (once) when I turned the key to "ON", (not running. ) It didn't drop back down. Almost sounds like the controller is going goofy. It's supposed to run the pump at a lower voltage for a short time and then drop off until start-up. (I think)

I think you have a bad guage.

 

[Motorhead]

jhellmers, To ck if the voltage is droping at the pump, pig tail in two wires at the fuel pump plug and tie it into a digital volt meter that you could watch from the cab of your truck. Along with the fuel pressure guage, when reading low, ck the voltage to the pump.

Like Pit Bull mentioned, Is your guage ok?



It is ashamed that WE OWNERS have to trouble shoot our trucks when for the $$$$ we paid, we should have COMPETENT Dealer support!!



I am going through this right now... . I have a driveline noise in my rig that THEY couldn't, wouldn't spend enough time to listen for. Now at 46,000 miles, out of warranty by 10,000 miles, the noise is still there only worse. They finally acknowledged the noise but now they have to get the Dodge GODS involved and THEY will probably tell me to go take a HIKE! Steping off the soap box now.

 

[AlFischer]

I have been reading about lift pumps for over a year and have a pressure gauge. Mine is OK. (so far) but my pressure gauge has sent my son-in-laws and his fathers truck to the dealer for new lift pumps. (replaced without problem).



So is the problem strictly the location (suck instead of push) or is the pump inadequate? Does relocating it fix the problem or just lessen it? Does relocating it affect any warranty?



Seems like the real fix is an in tank pusher. But they fail too. Generally right after a fill-up!