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Lift Pump Autopsy

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engine vibration

Sears fuel preasure gauge

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I ran some tests on my lift pump to try and find out why the pressure was getting down to single digits when my truck is working. Since the pump was out of the truck, (replaced with the latest rev at 50K miles), I had the opportunity to measure the pressure and flow at different voltages and using a variable restriction at the output.



The set-up I used was to pump diesel from a 1-quart container using a 3/8" suction line. The pump output pressure was measured by using a tee with a mechanical pressure gauge and a needle valve to adjust the restriction. The fuel was then returned to the container so it would be re-circulated. The pump power came from a regulated DC power supply and was set at 13. 6 volts to simulate a typical voltage level when the truck is running. An oscilloscope was connected to monitor the current draw of the pump as it operated. This allowed me to measure the RPM and current draw under the various pressure loading.



Here are my findings:



The pump has a 6 pole permanent magnet motor and turns at 5000 RPM. The current draw at 13. 6 volts averages 3. 6 amps with no restriction at the output of the pump. The motor shows the current varying as much as 1. 5 amps as the commutator rotates. As I close off the needle valve to build pressure on the gauge, the gauge needle will vibrate as if the pump is "cogging" and causing the pressure to pulse. With the needle valve fully closed, the maximum pressure was 11 PSI. (Remember, this was my bad pump. ) I opened the valve just enough to get an 8 PSI reading on the gauge. This is about the right pressure for a good pump when cruising on a level road. The pump flows about 75 gallons per hour under these conditions. I also monitored the temperature of the diesel as I ran this test for about 2 hours. The fuel, at the start of the test was at 60*F and after about 1 hour stabilized at 100*F. The pressure remained the same throughout this test however the gauge needle continued to vibrate + or - 2 PSI at the 8 PSI mark. This test could have gone on for days but I stopped it.



Next I dissembled the pump by removing the cover plate, which is held on with the 3 mounting studs. There is a rubber gasket below the cover and removing this reveals a nicely machined rotary vane pump. Looking closely at the construction shows that fuel enters from the input port through a hole of about ¼ inch. A stainless steel screen catches the big stuff before it enters the internal rotor housing. The output port is also about ¼ inch. What I found interesting is at the output port; the pressurized fuel is forced down into the motor housing. This fuel must be used to cool and lubricate the electric motor. The fuel in the motor housing then exits by popping off a spring-loaded check valve and is returned to the inlet side of the pump. It is this valve that controls the pump pressure. I defeated the spring-loaded valve by inserting a small nylon rod that would push against the valve and hold it closed with the cover re-installed. Retesting the pump showed the maximum pressure at 29 PSI with the needle valve at the output closed. Current draw now was at 6. 5 amps and pump speed was down to about 4000 RPM. The gauge needle now was bouncing + or - 4 PSI.



So what does this all mean? The problem with the lift pump pressure is most likely to be caused by the relief valve spring fatiguing due to the pressure pulsations. This spring, if weak will drop the pressure. If you have no pressure and can still hear the pump running, the spring has collapsed and is unable to keep the relief valve closed. A quick way to determine if your pump is weak is to measure the lift pump current draw. At 3. 6 amps the pump would only make 11 PSI. It draws almost 6 amps at 20 PSI.



Hope this helps.
 
Dave, well done man! It is nice to have technical people that can add to the knowledge on the board. Good report and good info.
 
Dave , excellent autopsy, this brings new lite to the problem, I bought a new lift pump from CUMMINS and while I had it and the OEM pump on the bench I took them both apart and found no differences in the pump itself, I figgered the diff must be in the motor??I wonder if a fella was to disable the spill back on the pump because the way I understand it there is a relief on the vp44 that lets fuel spill back to the tank anyhow, so do we need the spillback on the pump, I dont think so:confused: Kevin
 
This is the most useful post yet on a lift pump 74gph@8psi shut off pressure of 11psi?



I peg out at 13psi when I turn the key to run... . at Idle I am just below 12psi once everything is nice and warm.



What was your pressure reading at the VP44 when this pump was still in the truck?
 
Kevin, I was thinking the same thing, the only problem I see is the brushes on the motor may not withstand the added current of constant full load operation for long. But, there is only one way to find out right? I am assuming that it is a brushed DC motor as I have not had a lift pump to inspect.
 
I think I understand what dDC is doing here, they dont want the lift pump motor to be overloaded and burned up so they design a pumparound or spill back into the system, this is a smart and practical thing to do however the problem apears to be in the design of the spillback, so what if the spillback was disabled all together?at what psi does the spillback on the vp-44 lift and send fuel back to the tank??? someone posted that before but I cant remember the number, OK so lets say that that would put too much load on the electric motor, than how about if we were to modify the spillback outlet to the tank instead of the suction of the pump, this would be the same thing only with alot more line involved, I would think we could installe a in-line regulator set at 15 psi to open as a spillback to the tank ???

I am going to take a look at my old OEM pump some more to see exactly what 15-40 pointed out to us... ..... great job 15-40:) ... ... ... ... . Kevin
 
Great post 15-40,

thats what we need, someone to get the ball rolling.



I know the best thing would be a repair kit with new spring but since no one can seem to find one, throw this around and see what you think.



What if a person was to defeat the spring loaded valve as 15-40 described and then drill a small hole in the valve to bring the pressure down to say 18-20 psi that should take some current load off the motor. I know this would not give a constant pressure for the vp44 but if the pressure stayed up to say 10psi at WOT then that would be sufficient.



Maybe someone can find a spring from some other application.



just an idea.



Ron
 
15-40 did an excellent job. I dont think you want to start restricting the releif in the lift pump. I would think the end result would be even shorter lift pump life do to a constant 100% duty cylce per say. The vp 44 should be able to provide full horespower as long as there is a positive pressure provided by the lift pump. The idea is that as long as the vp44 is not in a vaccum then the vane pump inside of it is getting enough fuel supply. Why dont some of you industrious types figger out a way to hook a one way check valve from the inlet side of the transfer pump to the outlet side. This way when the lift pump dies, due to a failed motor, the excessive restriction at the vp44 wont cause a burned up vp44.

A Johnson
 
Great work 15-40.

I was certain that there was an explanation for all of the failures. This means that the actual pump is still good, and not failing itself. I think what I would like to do is get a new spare pump and disect it to replace the pressure relief spring with a heavier one and place a regulator downstream to either send fuel to pump inlet or; better yet to the tank as suggested by whitmore.

It would seem that the pulsations of the vp44 are causing the spring to fail. perhaps if there was a way to dampen out these pulsations, the problem would be solved. DC engineers sure don't appear to have much interest or ability to figure out what one of Our own members can.

I love this site! I am proud to be a member among like members that have a quest to make their Ram trucks the best they can be!
 
Incredible work 15-40. I think the knowledge you have bestowed on all of us gives a better understanding of the dark science of lift pumps. I have been experiencing some erratic fuel pressures(10-14 psi then all of a sudden it drops down to 1-5psi for anywhere from 10 seconds to 20 minutes, then just as quickly it shoots back up to 10-14 psi depending on the throttle position). It sounds like the way a lift pump dies is a slow progression due to the fact it usually is a drawn out event to fatigue the spring to the point of failure. If this is the case, it helps me isolate my problem to my fuel pressure gauge set up and not so much the lift pump.

You must be one curious fella, I bet you were hell on your parents appliances growing up.



Again, great job

Pat

2001 QC ETH 4x4
 
15w40 , good job ...





DC engineers had nothing to do with the pump design , just the specs possibly . the pump is made by carter and is very similar to their race pump they have been selling for sometime . i have a rebuild kit for this pump , there is no replacement spring in it . the spillway is an internal bypass , it cools and lubes the electric motor and sends the excess back to the inlet side of the pump , not the tank , it also keeps the pump from self destructing if you have to much of a restriction where the pump is sending fuel .





ron , 10psi would be nice but not necessary , anything over 0 is great , 3 better , 5 , i'm making over 400hp at 5 psi WOT ...
 
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If I remember right, the outlet banjo on the VP44 has a check valve set at 14lbs. The problem with trying to use that as the relief for the lift pump is the "restriction" that the filter is to the volume side of the equation. I just put together two days ago a "bypass" at the pre filter test port on the fuel filter housing on my 99 (which shunts the excess fuel back to the tank). I am still "playing" with the "pop off" pressure setting. I actually started this project coming from a different angle. I was trying to "farmer up" something to get rid of the "entrained air" in the diesel.



If a person could use the outlet banjo as the "bypass" and had the fuel pressure sender mounted pre filter, one would know when the filter was dirty by the increased pressure in the line vs the drop in pressure we rely on with the sender mounted post filter with the current setup.
 
Hey Mopar-Muscle,

Weren't you the guy some time ago that was saying there is a rebuild kit for our lift pumps.



I never could find any rebuild parts, every time I went into a auto parts store and asked for parts they all looked at me like I just steped out of a mental institution. Do you have any part numbers that one could use and the parts store to buy them at, this way they won't think I'am still crazy.



How would you like to start selling these kits to TDR members or have someone that will or contact an after market distributor like DD (just an example), or PM one of us guys and we will do the leg work. I would be willing to at least contact a distributor, maybe even start selling the parts or at the very least I would add the part numbers to my signature, that way word would get around and eventually most everyone would know.



If I'am wrong about you being the guy that knows the part numbers, I'am sorry for the long post and forgive me.



Ron
 
I just got done tearing the lift pump apart and some things to reveal, the pump is not rebuildable, between the pump and the motor I had to grind away at the flange to seperate the 2 components, when I did get them apart I found exactly what Dave 15-40 told us , there is a small steele /spring check valve in the discharge side of the pump that will open at a designated psi and spill back to the suction side of the pump, It is also a 2 brush magnetic motor that looks cheesie to me,if there were a kit out there it would only consist of 4 new vanes and the center part or vane holder,

I am now of the oppinion that the OEM pump is not worth putting back on the truck even if the 5 screw stealers warrentee it.



If any other members would like to see the pump let me know and I will mail to you for inspection... ... ... ... . Kevin
 
Don't know if this will work on the O. E pumps but this is the part # for the Carter electric pump rebuild kit # CAR-888-178 , got this out of my Performance Automotive Warehouse catalog. The price of the kit is $15. 95
 
first ron , yes , that was me , i have the kit in a bag still sealed , itts a federal mogal part , carter is owned by FM , wonder how long there will be parts , and pumps as i heard FM went under , chapter 11 ????



whitmore , exactly , the rebuild kit is the vanes and holder , the piece the vanes spin against , the flat metal disc that sits above the vanes and such and the rubber gasket under the cover ... thats all.



mike65 , i'll bet thats the part number , i have to get the kit and look , the number is posted on this site somewhere , i know i posted it more than once . i bought that kit from a local auto parts styore ... a real one , not auto zone or pep boys ... sorry to those that work at these stores ...



i agree whitmore , the factory pump is fine for a stock truck , but its to far from the fuel source , bombed trucks need a bit more than the stocker has to offer ...



this is my opinion , from testing ( though very little) on my own personal truck and the DTT truck last april ... ...
 
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