Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Lift Pump Woes

[bhutchinson]

Although I have been checking in on the different forums, this is the first time I have posted anything to the forum. The TDR Roundtable is really great. If I did not subscribe to this incredible source of grass roots information, I would have no idea about any problems with the fuel lift pump in my 2002 HO 6-speed.



The first problem I noticed was while I was towing my jeep to Vermont from Maryland this past November, and I was rolling up a hill somewhere along the way when I stepped into the throttle and nothing happened. After a few seconds the truck took off like I expected it to. It didn't give me any problems since then, until a couple of weeks ago when I was accelerating from a stop light and it stumbled again - no power for a couple of seconds and then everything seemed to run as normal.



This last episode prompted me to search through my copies of TDR and get online to see what I could find out. After reading many of the articles and posts regarding this problem, I purchased a fuel pressure gauge and installation kit and a lifter pump relocation kit from Genos Garage.



I just finished installing the gauge this afternoon to obtain a baseline fuel pressure reading and am shocked at the fuel pressure readings that I am registering - how about 2psi at idle and ZERO at anything above idle. I went so far as to loosen the fuel pressure line to the gauge again and make sure I had bled all of the air out of it - to no avail - 2 and 0 psi.



I assume that with readings like this, the pump is history and I should purchase a new one. My question is, is the factory pump inherently bad, or is it basically a good pump but subject to fail because of the stock mounting location? Should I purchase a new factory stock pump or go for an aftermarket one?



My truck is basically stock and has 48K miles. Thanks in advance for any advice you can give me.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

If at all possible, DO NOT drive your truck until the fuel flow issue is resolved - it could easily cost you an expensive VP-44 injection pump!



The stock Lift Pumps (LP) on these trucks can be a problem. At the very least, it should be relocated down to the frame rail as close to the fuel tank as possible, and the power harness lengthened to reach it. An even better solution is to also install a "pusher" pump to assure proper flow and a reserve pump in case problems occur with the stock LP.



There are other available alternatives to the Carter pumps used on out trucks - FASS, RASP, and others. It's largely a matter of how much money you want to spend, and whose hype moves you the strongest...



In any event, the VP-44 is both cooled and lubricated by fuel flow, and if you don't have fuel flow within spec, you will soon also not have a functioning VP-44!

 

[SLightfoot]

Are you measuring your pressure pre-filter or post-filter?



If it's pre-filter, yes don't drive until you get it fixed. You may have already done damage to that ever fussy injection pump. (I'm going through that right now)



If it's post filter, you still have the possibility of a clogged fuel filter and/or a bad lift pump.

 

[DVR]

they are not too tough to replace. lots of detailed instructions previously posted.

you might want to read about the campaign lift pumps. the p/n is posted. i am running one with no issues. it was $64 from a cummins dealer. the regular priced ones were about $170. from dodge they were almost $400. i carry a spare. it is very common.

 

[JR2]

The factory pump, even when relocated down to the frame rail, is not that fantastic of a pump. If you have the $$ and the desire to work on your truck you would be advised to add an aftermarket system of some type. With that said if you just want to fix the truck, get one of the pumps mentioned above and install it. You can buy a bunch of factory pumps for the price of a FASS,RASP, etc.

 

[bhutchinson]

I read a few more threads online, and heard someone else complaining that he relocated the pump and lost his IP anyway. When he took it to the dealer to replace the pump, the dealer informed him that he had voided his warranty by modifying the fuel system. I only have 48K miles on the truck, so I think I'll check with the dealer before I do anything I'll regret. I don't mind working on my own truck, but if I can get it fixed under warranty and not void the warranty, I think that is my best bet.

 

[DVR]

don't waste your time w/the dealer. they will tell you the lift pump is good based on flow. they will say pressure has nothing to do with it. been there, done that. if they do agree it is bad it will be replaced with an in tank unit. you don't want that either.

get a replacement pump and fitting washers (4) from cummins and replace it yourself. do not relocate or upgrade until you are out of warranty.



don't be surpriced if you require a I/P regardless of what you do. if your truck is under warranty it should be covered.

 

[bhutchinson]

I just cycled the ol' key in the ignition switch three times, and the following information was magically revealed:



PPCU

P1963

PDONE



PECU

P0216

PDONE



There you have it, folks - P0216 - the IP death knell code. :{



From the dealer's perspective, does this code signify that the IP needs replacing, or that it's just on it's way out?



DVR, I don't know how the dealer can say pressure has nothing to do with it. The service manual plainly states the following:

With the engine running, the pump has 2 modes of operation: Mode 1: 100 percent duty-cycle with a minimum pressure of 10 psi except when the engine is cranking. Mode 2: 15 percent duty cycle with a maximum pressure of 7 psi with the engine cranking. If you do not register this pressure at the inlet to the IP, then you either have some restriction in the filter/lines, or the transfer pump is malfunctioning.



From what I gather from responses on this forum, the dealer's in-tank pump fix isn't any better? Is it looked on dis-favorably because it does not provide adequate pressure, or because it is installed in the tank, therefore not easily replaced? As far as the pressure side of the argument, it seems to me that the dealer's "fix" ought to meet or exceed the same minimum specification or it's not "fixed".



Is this in-tank pump installed in addition to the stock transfer pump, or does the dealer do away with the stock pump during the conversion?



Based on this trouble code, I plan on taking it in to the dealer and let them pay to repair this poor design. I may have to remove the in-tank pump in the future, but it's got to be better than voiding my warranty at this time.

 

[Jeff Knight]

I have the in tank pump installed in my truck. It does replace the pump on the motor. They put a block in its place to run the fuel line through. My pump idles at 9 psi and i can take it to 0 psi just excellerating onto the highway. It's all about volume now instead of pressure. Jeff

 

[bhutchinson]

You haven't noticed any change in performance with the new setup? Did the dealer replace the IP at the same time?

 

[Jeff Knight]

I haven't noticed any difference in performance. I got the dead pedal on a trip back from Colarado. I also had the 0216 code. Thats when they changed the pump and replaced the apps. They said a bad apps can cause the same codes. It's been running fine since. My truck has 81000 miles on it. Jeff

 

[bhutchinson]

Thanks, Jeff. I've got it scheduled to be at the dealer's on Wednesday. I'll post the outcome when I get it back.

 

[Jeff Knight]

If they put the in-tank in your truck ask them if you can have the module they took out. That way if you want to do something else you will have the module. I ask to late. They already sent it back to dodge. They said they had to for warranty purposes. Jeff

 

[bhutchinson]

I took my truck in on Wednesday morning and just picked it up this (Saturday) afternoon. They didn't look at it 'till Friday. They replaced the lift pump with a new one in the tank and installed the block-off plate to take the place of the old pump. They would not give me the old unit out of the tank since it was under warrantee. My fuel pressure gauge now reads about 7 psi pretty steady. They replaced the fuel filter while they were in there and charged me $57 for the filter and $40 for labor! I don't know how anyone can afford not to be able to work on their own vehicle.

 

[Jeff Knight]

The only reason I haven't done anything yet is my truck is still under waranty. If my VP44 goes south I want it to be while it's still under waranty. Jeff

 

[Voodoo Trucker]

99% of the time a po216 is a IP. Its good that you are still under warranty. That way if the problem occurs again you will get a IP under warranty.

0 psi is not good, pressure is caused by the restriction to flow. If you have stock fuel system (3/8 line) and a heathy pump putting out the spec volume you are going to see 10-17 psi. If I took the same oem system lets say making 15 psi(still connected to the IP after the lift pump). And now I disconnect it from IP and ran it into a bucket with the psi gauge connected you will see a drop in psi close if not at 0 psi. Why? No restriction to flow (via,IP,overflow valve,etc. ) Now you say well I have 0 psi why? Because you don't have enough flow to make psi. It's the same with battery's with a increase in amperage (flow) Voltage (psi) decreases. If you have a dead battery low voltage (psi) you are not going to have enough amps (flow) to turn the starter. Remember Voltage and PSI are potential. All a VP-44 knows is the combination of the two=

 

[Voodoo Trucker]

I have the in tank pump installed in my truck. It does replace the pump on the motor. They put a block in its place to run the fuel line through. My pump idles at 9 psi and i can take it to 0 psi just excellerating onto the highway. It's all about volume now instead of pressure. Jeff

Would you run your engine at that oil psi ???????????? I DON'T Think SO! It's the same for the VP-44. I hope for your sake, that you check your gauge accuracy. Also check the flow...

 

[Jeff Knight]

Voodoo Trucker,

I know what you are saying about pressure. The only reason I haven't done anything is because of my waranty. I watch my gauge to make sure I don't pull it down to 0 psi. I've checked my gauge with a test gauge. The dealer put a 2nd pump in because i wasn't happy with the pressure. It checked out the same as the first one. They both were within specs for flow. Thats all DC will do. Once it becomes my dollar I will do something. Another guy on here put the big line kit on his truck and was denied waranty when his IP went south. Thats what I want to avoid. Jeff

 

[keimmmo]

Check with your dealer before making any modifications and keep the factory parts so you can put it back stock if there is a MAJOR issue down the road... like a motor or something. My dealer was GLAD to see my fuel system modifications because he agreed that it would improve the life of the injection pump!



Know your dealer! That is what is REALLY important.



Steve Keim

 

[Voodoo Trucker]

Jeff, its good that you are still under warranty, its on them. I have my own shop and I replace about 4-6 VP-44's a month. We also drag race a 24v with almost 200,000 miles on it with a rebuilt VP-44 that has over 80,000 on it. We upgraded the fuel system and never had a problem. The drag truck is also a daily driver and all I can say is that if this truck had the stock fuel system I think we would be on are third IP by now. With hundreds of runs down the 1/4 and 1/8 mile.

I will tell you this, I make allot more money putting the stock lift pump on. I love repeat business. I also don't like selling junk. I give my customers options and fully explain to them what they are up against, just like I'm doing here. I don't think the VP-44 is junk, with the right amount of psi and volume it will live a long time. The longest running VP-44 I have ever seen had over 350,000 miles and 6500 hrs on the hobs. The application was a 98 ElDarado airport shuttle bus. The pump was still running but, kept loosing prime when you shut it off due to internal seals. It also ran 1/2 in supply line up to the lp which may have helped its long life. Belive it or not it still had the original lift pump. Go figure...