Well the dominoes continue to fall. Is there anyone out there who may guide me to a quality source for the clutches for the limited slip differential on a Ram 250 (W250), 1991. 5 vintage. I added more friction modifier to the new differential fluid and still get a considerable amount of chatter. Does one need to pull the axles to do this kind of service? Someone stated on TDR that it was a simple procedure to swap out the clutches. Any help would be appreciated. GregH
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Limited Slip axle, clutch replacement
- Thread starter GHarman
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I just ordered a set of clutches and steels for ~$70 shipped from Randy's Ring and Pinion.
Axle shafts have to come out at least a little ways.
Simply remove the carrier (the cylindrical looking part that holds the ring gear) You'll likely need a prybar to get it out of the case. A case spreader is ideal, but not required. Remove the bolts holding the 2 halves together. The clutches are stacked outboard of the center gears. Pay attention to the instructions- there is a certain order the clutches install. Also, make sure you soak the clutches in friction modifier overnight before reassembling.
I'd add another container of friction modifier to the gear oil on diff fill.
In my experience, when you get to the point of having chatter around corners, the clutches are beyond the point of no return.
Good luck.
Daniel
Axle shafts have to come out at least a little ways.
Simply remove the carrier (the cylindrical looking part that holds the ring gear) You'll likely need a prybar to get it out of the case. A case spreader is ideal, but not required. Remove the bolts holding the 2 halves together. The clutches are stacked outboard of the center gears. Pay attention to the instructions- there is a certain order the clutches install. Also, make sure you soak the clutches in friction modifier overnight before reassembling.
I'd add another container of friction modifier to the gear oil on diff fill.
In my experience, when you get to the point of having chatter around corners, the clutches are beyond the point of no return.
Good luck.
Daniel
Aftermarket Upgrades?
Here is the question, Old Ugly got a new heart last fall. Everything runs like it should. Maintenence is ongoing on an older truck and this year is no exception. A new vehicle is out of the question. What do you all think of a Detroit Locker or somewhat milder, more positive rear differential system? What is available for the 1st Gen trucks? I am not a professional wrench and the work will probably be done by a shop because of my physical limitations. I am running tires with a minimum amount of tread, so the rearend does not chatter as much with the good tires. Got some time to shop around. Any Input would be appreciated. I drive twisting, winding mountain roads. Very little long distance highway. GregH
Here is the question, Old Ugly got a new heart last fall. Everything runs like it should. Maintenence is ongoing on an older truck and this year is no exception. A new vehicle is out of the question. What do you all think of a Detroit Locker or somewhat milder, more positive rear differential system? What is available for the 1st Gen trucks? I am not a professional wrench and the work will probably be done by a shop because of my physical limitations. I am running tires with a minimum amount of tread, so the rearend does not chatter as much with the good tires. Got some time to shop around. Any Input would be appreciated. I drive twisting, winding mountain roads. Very little long distance highway. GregH
PToombs
TDR MEMBER
Greg, I was looking at these. eBay Motors: Powertrax No-Slip 92-0470-3200 Dana 70 32 Spline (item 190224036695 end time May-28-08 10:30:30 PDT) I have a thread going asking about these. I don't have a clue how they will hold up in our diesels, but I know they work good in Jeeps. I helped my buddy put 1 in a few years ago. It was a very simple install, with normal hand tools. Just pull the axles, spiders, then put this in. Put the axles back in. All you had to do was shim the sides a little.
I think I would prefer an LSD for what I do, but that's more money. I haven't decided if I want to be the TDR guinea pig for these or not.
Let us know what you decide to do.
I think I would prefer an LSD for what I do, but that's more money. I haven't decided if I want to be the TDR guinea pig for these or not.
Let us know what you decide to do.
Greg,
I have the detroit and on tight turns on pavement if I an under much load or acceleration at all, I feel or hear a rear tire slide depending on speed.
I would repack the LS unless it has been a problem under agressive use. Don't get me wrong, I like my new Detroit when I need it, sand, mud, rocks it performs flawlessly. I can feel at times that it is putting rear end components under a little more strain when I turn uphill at low speeds.
(I don't burnout nearly as much as I used to either.
)
I have the detroit and on tight turns on pavement if I an under much load or acceleration at all, I feel or hear a rear tire slide depending on speed.
I would repack the LS unless it has been a problem under agressive use. Don't get me wrong, I like my new Detroit when I need it, sand, mud, rocks it performs flawlessly. I can feel at times that it is putting rear end components under a little more strain when I turn uphill at low speeds.
(I don't burnout nearly as much as I used to either.
)Thanks for the Input
Got alot to consider. Cost and useability are the top concerns. I like the idea of the Powertrax, but that is for an open differential? I'm not sure that a LS differential is considered open as I understand the term. I do not know from the literature I have read that the Powertrax is available as a "replacement for the LS differential". Any Thoughts?
Whilst the rear axle is tore down I will probably have the rear brakes serviced and new seals installed. That will add some to the job. Need to get another good set of shoes from Chrysler. Aftermarket shoes and pads dont last. GregH
Got alot to consider. Cost and useability are the top concerns. I like the idea of the Powertrax, but that is for an open differential? I'm not sure that a LS differential is considered open as I understand the term. I do not know from the literature I have read that the Powertrax is available as a "replacement for the LS differential". Any Thoughts?
Whilst the rear axle is tore down I will probably have the rear brakes serviced and new seals installed. That will add some to the job. Need to get another good set of shoes from Chrysler. Aftermarket shoes and pads dont last. GregH
Whats that Noise?
EEEEEEEHHHHHHH, Wrong Answer!:-laf
GregH
Greg, my bad!Powertrax only works in an open diff. I wasn't listening when you said you had a LSD. I'm usually pretty attentive.
Wanna trade axles? :-laf
Damm, I was hoping you'd be the guinea pig!
EEEEEEEHHHHHHH, Wrong Answer!:-laf
GregHFrom all of my research, the Dana Powrlok is the best traction aid for the Dana axles. They will hold up to the torque better than anything else. I have heard stories of Detroits breaking on vehicles having less torque than our trucks and the manufacturer not warrantying it. This scared me away from a Detroit.
I understand that the Dana Traclok is weaker than the Powrlok, and I believe this aftr seeing the cases for each.
I have the Powrlok in my 96 and 99, and even with the 99 having over 1000, ftlbs of torque, I have no problems with the Powrlok, except maybe it's a bit too tight, chirping tires when turning corners under power.
Chris
I understand that the Dana Traclok is weaker than the Powrlok, and I believe this aftr seeing the cases for each.
I have the Powrlok in my 96 and 99, and even with the 99 having over 1000, ftlbs of torque, I have no problems with the Powrlok, except maybe it's a bit too tight, chirping tires when turning corners under power.
Chris
Dana Power loc
Checked out the cost of the unit. $549. 00 & Still looking and checking. Have to weigh the longevity benefits of the axle, possible increased tire wear as well as the increased traction. If you have ever plowed straight when you were intending to turn on a snow packed road, would be a disadvantage. Cost and increased tire wear on winding roads? I have no experience with this type of traction except in an old Subaru. When the rear locks, it doesnt steer well on slick roads. Ideas? GregH
Checked out the cost of the unit. $549. 00 & Still looking and checking. Have to weigh the longevity benefits of the axle, possible increased tire wear as well as the increased traction. If you have ever plowed straight when you were intending to turn on a snow packed road, would be a disadvantage. Cost and increased tire wear on winding roads? I have no experience with this type of traction except in an old Subaru. When the rear locks, it doesnt steer well on slick roads. Ideas? GregH
In the case of the powr-lok vs a locker, the powrlok is going to give you a better chance of steering in the snow/ice. It just needs to be a little looser than either of mine currently are. If you have a locker you'll definitely experience steering problems. I have not had ice and snow to amount to anything here in a couple of years so I have not experienced lack of steering enough to put more friction modifier in my D70s, but that's how you loosen them up.
Chris
Chris
Facts and Decision time
Got a call from Advanced Transmission about my rear axle issue. #1. I already have the Dana Power Loc! That is the conclusion based on the numbers on the axle tag. #2. To properly rebuild this differential with "springs and gears" and replace three seals, Pinion, and two wheel seals. It will cost ~$1400. Estimated at 6 hrs labor + parts. Brakes not included. I know that there are those of you out there that can do this in their sleep and have the time to accomplish this task. I may keep running it as it is for a while. Just not sure about its reliability. What is the worse case scenerio that can happen? I guess, my main question is how is the best way to approach this, Rebuild the guts or replace the guts with a new unit. I have never had a differential apart so dont really know how it goes together. I priced the unit (above)plus shipping, the labor should be <$450. A double markup on parts is unacceptable. However, they did say, "If I get the parts, they would install them for labor only". Thoughts? GregH
Got a call from Advanced Transmission about my rear axle issue. #1. I already have the Dana Power Loc! That is the conclusion based on the numbers on the axle tag. #2. To properly rebuild this differential with "springs and gears" and replace three seals, Pinion, and two wheel seals. It will cost ~$1400. Estimated at 6 hrs labor + parts. Brakes not included. I know that there are those of you out there that can do this in their sleep and have the time to accomplish this task. I may keep running it as it is for a while. Just not sure about its reliability. What is the worse case scenerio that can happen? I guess, my main question is how is the best way to approach this, Rebuild the guts or replace the guts with a new unit. I have never had a differential apart so dont really know how it goes together. I priced the unit (above)plus shipping, the labor should be <$450. A double markup on parts is unacceptable. However, they did say, "If I get the parts, they would install them for labor only". Thoughts? GregH
Sounds like they want to redo the entire rear! I guess "right" can be defined that way, but I wouldn't do anything but put clutches in it unless there was another probelm, like the gears were messed up due to sled pulling.
If none of the seals leak now, why mess with them? They aren't that hard to do if one does start leaking.
My 96 has 236K on it, including a lot of heavy towing, and the rear has no problems with leaks or anything else.
Sure, you could rebuild the entire thing, but does it really need it? Is there a lot of slop in the gears? Whining? Other abnormal noise besides the clutch chatter?
My plan of action would be as follows:
1. Order the Powrlok rebuild kit from Randy's, which should have clutches and steels in it.
2. Get some friction modifier and put it in a Tupperware bowl with the clutches overnight.
3. Take it to them and have them install the clutches, if you don't feel like it. Find out how much to do just that! Note that no "setup" of the rear needs to happen if they are just putting the clutches in, as the same carrier is being used and they will reuse the same shims, in the same places, if there are any in there to begin with. Should not be more than about 1. 5 hours of labor, if the mechanic is slow.
4. If they pull it down and find bigger problems (not likely if you answered No to the above questions), you wan to see exactly what's wrong in a shop visit, and if it makes sense to you, order the parts from Randy's (they have it all), and take them to the shop.
Personally, you could probably do the clutches yourself easier. Only if the gears need to be set up would I take it anywhere else. I have never taken the time to learn to set up gears properly.
Chris
If none of the seals leak now, why mess with them? They aren't that hard to do if one does start leaking.
My 96 has 236K on it, including a lot of heavy towing, and the rear has no problems with leaks or anything else.
Sure, you could rebuild the entire thing, but does it really need it? Is there a lot of slop in the gears? Whining? Other abnormal noise besides the clutch chatter?
My plan of action would be as follows:
1. Order the Powrlok rebuild kit from Randy's, which should have clutches and steels in it.
2. Get some friction modifier and put it in a Tupperware bowl with the clutches overnight.
3. Take it to them and have them install the clutches, if you don't feel like it. Find out how much to do just that! Note that no "setup" of the rear needs to happen if they are just putting the clutches in, as the same carrier is being used and they will reuse the same shims, in the same places, if there are any in there to begin with. Should not be more than about 1. 5 hours of labor, if the mechanic is slow.
4. If they pull it down and find bigger problems (not likely if you answered No to the above questions), you wan to see exactly what's wrong in a shop visit, and if it makes sense to you, order the parts from Randy's (they have it all), and take them to the shop.
Personally, you could probably do the clutches yourself easier. Only if the gears need to be set up would I take it anywhere else. I have never taken the time to learn to set up gears properly.
Chris
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Dana Spicer 70HD PDF
Found this on the internet. Appears to be the "open differential". I hope I dont have to go this far. For those of you that need the info here it is. GregH
http://www2.dana.com/pdf/AXSM-0053.PDF
Found this on the internet. Appears to be the "open differential". I hope I dont have to go this far. For those of you that need the info here it is. GregH
http://www2.dana.com/pdf/AXSM-0053.PDF
Last edited by a moderator:
Randy's Ring and Pinion parts received
Got the "Clutches and Steels" in a bag with one tube of friction modifier. The parts are Spicer brand. They also sent 2 more tubes of friction modifier with a Ford Racing and Performance parts number. The instructions also include the presoak in friction modifier for a minimum of 20 minutes. Interesting that the instructions also specify the use of 80W-90 gear oil as Mil-Spec L-2105-C. Thismight preclude the use of the Amsoil Severe Gear oil as I had installed. I have several gallons of Amsoil 80W-90 on hand. GregH
Got the "Clutches and Steels" in a bag with one tube of friction modifier. The parts are Spicer brand. They also sent 2 more tubes of friction modifier with a Ford Racing and Performance parts number. The instructions also include the presoak in friction modifier for a minimum of 20 minutes. Interesting that the instructions also specify the use of 80W-90 gear oil as Mil-Spec L-2105-C. Thismight preclude the use of the Amsoil Severe Gear oil as I had installed. I have several gallons of Amsoil 80W-90 on hand. GregH
I am running the severe gear, 80W140, is it? I have no known problems. The LS is tight as can be on the 99, with the new clutches in it (broke spider gears while sled pulling). The 96 is a little looser, with 237K on it, but I still feel it "scratching" in gravel when I turn. That number of miles and it's still fairly tight is another reason I recommend the P-lok. Both are running Amsoil Severe Gear.
Oh, and I used the AMsoil friction modifier. It smells much better. Soak your clutches in the friction modifier, preferrably Amsoil, before installation, but don't add any to the rear when re-assembled until you see how it acts. Amsoil states that in many cases no friction modifier is needed with their gear oil. In my case, I need it.
If you need FM, you may need to add 4 or more bottles of FM to get it loosened up enough, depending on your taste. Only add one at a time and drive it for a few days, including some figure-8s in a parking lot, before you decide whether to add more to it.
The problem is if you add too much you'll have to change all the fluid to reduce the amount of FM in the housing, and tighten the LS back up.
Chris
Oh, and I used the AMsoil friction modifier. It smells much better. Soak your clutches in the friction modifier, preferrably Amsoil, before installation, but don't add any to the rear when re-assembled until you see how it acts. Amsoil states that in many cases no friction modifier is needed with their gear oil. In my case, I need it.
If you need FM, you may need to add 4 or more bottles of FM to get it loosened up enough, depending on your taste. Only add one at a time and drive it for a few days, including some figure-8s in a parking lot, before you decide whether to add more to it.
The problem is if you add too much you'll have to change all the fluid to reduce the amount of FM in the housing, and tighten the LS back up.
Chris
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