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Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Limited Slip Question

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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Radiator Block

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You are absolutely right about that video demo. And he could have easily done that. Limited slips have their place, and are better than an open diff, but just when you expect them to help you out of a jam, they let you down.

Your experience is very typical and similar to some of mine. Frustrating. Like being stuck on a banana peel. But that's what they do... It doesn't take too many towing bills or wasted hours of digging and cussing to make the cost of a locker seem more reasonable. Not to mention how you tend to beat the crap out of your truck trying to get unstuck and just make it worse, or even break something. All are "hidden costs" of NOT owning a locker.
 
The Dodge in that video is the newer style with the Torsen differential, and it does not work if both tires don't have some traction. All the driver needed to do was give the brakes a little jab and he'd have been off and running. I know, I had an '05 with that diff. I MUCH prefer the clutch style limited slips, and they can be "adjusted" to vary the amount of slip. I restacked the clutches in my Mustang and it WILL do a 2-wheel burnout with one tire off the road in mud. I am removing my Lock-Rite as soon as the new axles get here for my Powr-Lok swap. Since I put in my 4K GSK I can't stand it anymore. My neck gets sore.
 
I have a Powr Lok set up as tight as it can be and it would not do any better. That "jabbing the brakes" thing is an old wives tale. It would only work if you could vary the braking force from side to side.

Check out the other demo videos, too. I realize they are advertising, but they are also very good demonstrations of how superior any locker is to any limited slip.

Go watch a real offroad trail competition, mud bog, etc. See how many lockers vs. limited slips the serious guys are running. See how stuck the limited slip guys are.

Jack one side of your limited slip truck up so the wheels on one side are just barely off the ground while the other side is on dry pavement. I'll bet you can't even drive off the jackstands.
 
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FYI, I watched these videos before I bought my Lock-Rite. I got my locker'ed truck stuck in the snow once with a trailer on. You know what? While trying to rock it back and forth it was only spinning one tire. I couldn't believe it when my friend said so, he was trying to help me dig out. He got in to drive and sure enough, only one tire spinning. I still can't figure out why, but it was. I think the dog teeth were just skipping over each other since it was going from one direction to the other. A Powr-Lok set up at tight as could be wouldn't do any better, KEEP DREAMING. And using the brakes to EQUALIZE what the differential sees will indeed work on the Torsen differential.
 
Whatever... :rolleyes:



You know partner. I've run 2 locker equipped trucks, and have had several limited slips in different vehicles. Each has their own applications. There are several different kinds of limited slips, some work better than others for different applications. I prefer clutch type limited slips to the others, for my own reasons. I liked the Lock-Rite I had in my '93 Cummins, but it did clang and band a bit. I DON'T like the Lock-Rite in my '98. I know lots of people who have run lockers on the street, and some of them had switched back to limited slips. Some have not. Two of the best 4WD shops in Colorado are owned by friends of mine. They have built everything, including tube chassis rock crawlers. Do they run lockers? You bet your ***** they do. Do they run lockers in their own Turbo Diesels? NO!! For you to say that a locker is the ONLY way to go is naive and narrow minded. My girlfriend won't even drive my truck because of the quirks of my locker. And SHE was the one that owned the '05 Cummins that I drove that had the newer style Torsen diff.
 
It was either "Whatever" or this:

You apparently want the long version, as well as an argument:

"For you to say that a locker is the ONLY way to go is naive and narrow minded. "

If you would/could read with comprehension, I say (repeatedly) that a locker is superior for traction to a limited slip and if maximum traction AND durability AND no-maintainence is your goal, then a Detroit Locker is the way to go in a rear axle. Not the only way (there are other very good lockers), but an excellent choice in any case. That IS my own opinion based upon my OWN experience, but it is also backed up by thousands of real offroaders over many decades of trying everything imaginable with a 4x4. Detroits are legendary for good reason. And specified by the military.

A Powr Lok limited slip is a a huge LIE in name and a huge disappointment in action. It does not LOCK at all, ever. Period. It cannot put 100% of your power to both wheels ever. It slips at a predetermined setting depending on clutch materials, stacking order & direction of the belleville spring plates, wear, and the amount of friction modifier used, as well as the amount of traction available to ONE wheel, and that is the wheel with the LEAST amount of traction. So if one is in the air, the other might as well be, too.

I have a Powr Lok limited slip disassembled on my bench right this moment restacking the clutches and springplates for use in a front Dana 60 for my son's Chevy. I also have a Detroit Locker for a GM corporate 14 bolt rear axle and a PowerTrax locker for a Dana 80 sitting right next to it. The Detroit Locker is NOT available for a Dana 80 with 3. 54 gearing (bummer!), but the Powertrax is, and I intend to try it.

Eventually, once the disgusting, weenie, pseudo-Dana 60 in my diesel dodge is upgraded to 35 spline (real) Dana 60 shafts and lockout hubs, it, too, will get either a PowrLok limited slip or a selectable locker depending on my available funds. I would much prefer a selectable locker, but I already have another (30 spline) PowrLok I could use by just changing out a couple of parts to make it 35-spline.

The PowrLok limited slip will be a good, transparent help in the front axle of either truck once the clutch and belleville spring stacks are set up for front axle use. But the rear Detroit Locker, and the PowerTrax locker, will far exceed it's capabilities. But the limited slip up front is better than nothing and I cannot afford an OX or ARB selectable locker for the front, so I'm using what I already have. A fulltime locker in the front is not practical at all for a vehicle driven onroad. With a fulltime Detroit Locker in the rear, that truck (for my son) will be what I view as "3 and 1/2 wheel drive". Two in back and about one and a half up front. Far superior to two limited slips and just as easy for an experienced driver to handle.

I'm doing all of this to these trucks because i have had both Detroit Lockers and PowrLok limited slips in my trucks before. I know firsthand what each can, and cannot, do, as well as how they drive on and off road AND how to drive them. It is alot like driving a manual transmission truck: Everybody thinks they are good at it, but few guys, or gals, can actually do it without trashing the clutch prematurely or even the transmission or encountering other problems (or whining). I make my living driving real trucks and I am very good at it. Manual transmissions, double clutching, locking differentials, power dividers, etc. are my daily bread, so maybe I take for granted what others find difficult. You find lockers "difficult". I don't.

The PowrLok limited slip is superior to most other limited slips because it uses the free spinning (no traction) wheel to ramp the crosshaft and clutch plates tighter as wheel spin increases. But there is a definite limit to that. If ONE wheel is in the air, the PowrLok, like ALL limited slips, is worthless. But love a lie if you like. It's a free country. And it is a decent traction aid for a front axle if a selectable locker is out of the budget.

It requires special additive (friction modifier) and regular maintainence. A Detroit does not. The PowrLok is strong, but not as strong as a Detroit. But it is "easier to drive" for inexperienced drivers on dry pavement. For guys like you, as well as your girlfriend, that is a probably important. Just don't skimp on the friction modifier, though, or you will be whining about clutch chatter and bad road manners from the PowerLok, too. And the "easier to drive" you make it, the less effective it is. There is no "in between" with a Detroit. It is always 100% on-the-job delivering 100% of your power to both wheels, though it allows the wheels to differentiate their speeds when turning. As soon as wheel speeds once again match, it is LOCKED. Period. A Powr Lok is NEVER locked and NEVER gives 100% to both wheels.

Further more, I at least, offered a link to a video demonstration of why a locker (in general) is superior to a limited slip for traction so other members could see a simple demonstration and make up their own minds which traction device impresses them. You offer nothing showing a limited slip is superior in ANY way except your mouth i. e. > to say you got stuck with an el-cheapo broken lunchbox locker once and your girlfriend doesn't know how to drive a locker equipped truck. Big deal. Neither do most guys.

Now, just WHAT in all that is "narrow minded" or 'telling people what to do"? That is my honest experience and opinion and is NO different than you claiming a limited slip is the "only way to go".

So we're back to "whatever" 'cause I really don't give a crap what you or anybody else puts in their truck. But the day you want to put your money where your mouth is and hook a log chain between your big, bad diesel and my tired old gas-powered chevy on anything but dry pavement, or try to follow me offroad, I'll show you firsthand how a good (as in Detroit, OX, or ARB) locker is superior for traction and strength.

You run whatever you want, pal. But when you ever get the courage to venture offroad into something challenging and your limited slip leaves you stuck, picture me laughing at you in your mind. My dodge's rear PowrLok sure as hell has left ME stuck on far too many occasions where my DETROIT LOCKERED Chevy would have drove right through in 2WD.

Now quit putting words in my mouth and enjoy your truck, YOUR way. You are welcome to all the limited slips you want. A "limited guy" should have a "limited truck".
 
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Man this thread got pretty heated. SRath has a point, for extreme offroading the real lockers are better. Last weekend I wrecked my front driveshaft in the Dodge because my old worn out LSD wasn't up to snuff (stomped on the brakes in 4lo to try and make it lock up, overtorqued the font u-joint). My buddy's fully lockered, 22RE-powered '85 Toyota pulled me out...



That being said, I use my Dodge for long highway miles, steep drill roads, city driving, hauling firewood and drill core, getting to church, hauling girls (no, not the ones that require 800 ft/lbs to get moving), and daily driving. So, I don't really want a locker's behavior ALL the time just for the FEW occasions that the LSD is inferior. Life is full of tradeoffs I guess. I'll try the restack, see how that does.



My '75 F100 is getting lockrite's front and rear. It's my toy, designed for "real" offroading. I'll deal with the locker's behavior for the few miles it takes to get to the dirt.
 
Aren't there some lockers with street manners? Seems I recall a few years looking at lockers and one advertised... "strenght of the Detroit without the bad manners"



I would like to upgrade the rear end's traction, but would "prefer" a smooth ride. . if posible? No doubt the Detroit is the shizzle off road. What don't you like about your locRite? I didn't think they banged around like Detroits?



Shouldn't a rear locker's bad manners show up more in a short wheel base truck? I would think the LWB trucks would not be a bad, due to the increased turning radious?
 
Aren't there some lockers with street manners? Seems I recall a few years looking at lockers and one advertised... "strenght of the Detroit without the bad manners"



I would like to upgrade the rear end's traction, but would "prefer" a smooth ride. . if posible? No doubt the Detroit is the shizzle off road. What don't you like about your locRite? I didn't think they banged around like Detroits?



Shouldn't a rear locker's bad manners show up more in a short wheel base truck? I would think the LWB trucks would not be a bad, due to the increased turning radious?



In simplest terms, a locker will not let a wheel turn slower than the ring gear. To differentiate, it allows the outside tire to turn faster through the turn. The problem is that when it unlocks the outside tire you get a small feeling of acceleration as the truck starts to push with the inside tire. It was never too bad with the stock governor springs, you would feel a little push when the locker unlocked. However, when I installed my 4K GSK, it made the idle a bit more touchy and now when it unlocks it pushes my rpm's down and the governor pushes a little extra fuel. This causes the truck to accelerate until it goes past where the governor wants, then it lessens fuel, which makes the truck slow down and the way the locker works it tries to slow with the outer wheel so there is some slop as it basically switches between wheels. Then when the truck slows down enough, it switches back to the inside wheel and the rpm's drop again, causing more fuel. The all happens very quickly while you're making your turn and you feel like you're getting whiplash as the truck accelerates, then decelerates repeatedly. This is the primary thing I don't like about it.



I had the same locker in my '93, but as you mentioned, the longer wheelbase smoothed things out a bit and the locker was a bit more transparent. I also didn't have the governor problem in that truck as the governor wasn't so touchy. I really miss that truck, but 4-wheeling in a club cab, long bed was the best. Threading that big of a truck between trees in 2-3 feet of snow was challenging. I knocked the mirrors on trees numerous times.



The Lock-Rite does bang and clang like detroit. It doesn't do it constantly, but it does do it. Normally all you hear is a ratcheting sound as you turn, and you have to have the window down to hear it. Usually the only time it really bangs is if you make a turn one direction, then immediately the other way. The newer lockers, like the latest Detroit and the PowerTrax, stay unlocked until the wheel speed equalizes. This should get rid of the ratcheting sound, but I don't know how much of a difference it would make with the bang from immediate opposite turns.



I don't do nearly as much gnarly 4-wheeling anymore so I don't really need the ultimate traction. The guys I have always 4-wheeled with have all moved up to Wranglers and tube chassis buggies for rock-crawling. The last time I went with them I tore the hell out of my tires going where they went, and almost dropped the truck off an 800 foot cliff. Damn long wheel base. I'd like to build a Cherokee for going, but there are other priorities right now.
 
Based on reading other forums, articles, etc... the True Trac "appears" to be the best LS out there?, and comes the closest to a locker offroad in performance, but is pleasant on the street. I have not heard any talk of these units on this board... are they not offered for D70s & D80s?



I owned serveral GM Gov Locks (made by Eaton for GM) and they worked very well. They were always said to be weak but I never broke one. But mine were in 1/2T trucks.



I don't do any 4 wheelin down here with this truck, basically a truck of this weight just sinks in our gumbo if you venture off the roads when it's wet, but in and out of deer camps and the occassional muddy road with deep ruts would make a solid, hooked up rear axle nice. Not sure how well my stock LSD is working?, spins them both evenly in shell, gravel, etc.
 
Had a Detroit "Softlocker" differential in a Dana 70, the truck drove very easily and the power transfer was nice on the dry, wet, icy and snowy conditions that I encountered during my time in that truck.



The Detroit / Tratech Softlocker is a more well behaved locking differential than all the others on the road and has a bulletproof reliability record, this would be my choice for a rear differential application.



My choice for a front application for the Dana 60 would either be an ARB with upgraded lines or a selectable locker from OX.



Like previously stated, limited slip differentials basically are band aid for a problem that only a true locking differential rectifies.



Spend the money and go the LS route or go ahead and cry once with certain traction a given for the remainder of your vehicles life, the choice is yours.



My 2 cents.
 
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