Linux on Home Desktop

[rbattelle]

So I'm thinking of giving Linux a try, just for the heck of it. I consider myself pretty handy with computers, but I've never tried Linux in any form. [Although, I have some experience running UNIX workstations, but not setup or administration].



Anyone in here using Linux on a home desktop? The first question I have is, which distribution? I'm thinking of trying Ubuntu, since there seems to be some buzz about it at the moment.



I'm planning to install it on a spare hard drive and just toy with it for awhile - see how it fits me.



Ryan

 

[MVenditti]

Supposed to have come a long way in ease of use. Check computer sites for the latest news on which is best.

 

[fest3er]

... Anyone in here using Linux on a home desktop? The first question I have is, which distribution? I'm thinking of trying Ubuntu, since there seems to be some buzz about it at the moment.



I'm planning to install it on a spare hard drive and just toy with it for awhile - see how it fits me.



Ryan

Warning: this is probably far more than you wanted to know.



Desktop History

In '98 or so, I started using BeOS as my desktop system, and ran it until '02 or so, after Be failed and the OS became outdated. I was forced to us Winders for a short while. Then I found that Linux had come along *just* enough to be usable on the desktop. I installed SuSE or RedHat because the CD kits were decent. At some point, Debian became very usable on the desktop, and I've been using it since.



Distributions

Ubuntu is a very good distribution; it's based on Debian. They strive to keep it updated with the newest versions of software. I've not looked to see how many different architectures Ubuntu supports.



Debian is a very good distribution. If you need a program, you will quite likely find in their repository; they've more than 30,000 packages available. Debian also support many architectures: i386, PowerPC, ARM, VAX, IBM 390, Alpha, Motorola 68000, and many more.



The real difference between the two is that Debian focuses on building a solid release and maintaining that release for a year or three with as little change as possible. They typically use slightly old software that is know to be very stable, so the system won't change much between releases; stuff is a little older, but there are few changes that will trip you up; most are security and bug fixes, not feature changes. Debian may not work on the absolute newest computer hardware because they don't use the absolutely newest Linux kernel; rather, they pick a kernel that is likely to be fairly stable.



OTOH, Ubuntu focuses on keeping a subset of Debian up-to-date; updates are much more frequent and often include feature changes. Ubuntu will almost always work on the newest hardware because they use the newest kernels. But with those kernels comes the fair probability that there will be bugs and other deficiencies in the kernel; they're fixed fairly quickly, but still, it's a trade-off.



The choice is yours. Do you want a stable system you can use the same way every day for some years, or do you want a 'constantly changing' system that may require you to spend time learning new features and regularly changing 'the way you do stuff'?



I use Debian because I don't like having to re-learn how to use my computer too often; my computers are tools, not entertainment and education systems. Imagine if your toolbox contained one hammer, one screwdriver, one plier and one wrench. Now imagine if each of those tools was completely different each time you picked it up to use it: a royal PITA. However, you may find it instructional to use a distribution that changes often, for it will force you to learn nuances of the system and software. If you do, I'd bet that, sooner or later, you'll bellow, "Enough!" and find a more static distribution so you can just use the computer for longer periods of time: spend more time using the computer instead of maintaining it.



Final distrib note: I've only mentioned Debian and Ubuntu because I an partial to the 'Debian way'. There are others out there that you might find more suitable to your needs.



GUI Software

I've been using the KDE desktop for many years now. I'm still satisfied with the KMail email program. Alas, the Konqueror web browser has suffered in recent years; it used to be the most standards-compliant web browser made, but it just doesn't properly display many web sites any more. I've even tried the latest KDE (4. 2/4. 3), but I get the same results. I'm getting closer to following Torvalds' lead and switching to another desktop.



Most of those 30,000+ packages are of little interest to most computer users, but they're there in case someone finds a need for one. Typically, I use the following GUI programs:

• KMail for email
  
• OpenOffice for word processing and spreadsheets
  
• GnuCash for personal bookkeeping
  
• Konqueror for most web browsing
  
• Iceweasel (Firefox) for sites that Konqueror chokes on
  
• Gmplayer for most video, though Adobe's flashplayer works well for youtube
  
• GIMP for image/picture processing (much like Photoshop, but different)
  
• Akregator for RSS news feeds
  
• Juk for playing music (I'm working on ripping my 300+ CDs and 25+ hours of TimeLife's Swing Era music into FLAC files on the desktop; then I'll compress them down to OGG/Vorbis and find a portable player that can hold it all)
  
• Grip for ripping CDs
  
• QCad for the little I need to do in the line of CAD drawings
  
• I've just been discovering that Inkscape is finally becoming very usable for vector graphics artwork. It may soon replace Adobe Illustrator, so I can finally all but ditch Winders.
  

Command line programs

Most everything else I do, I use a shell with command line programs. For data processsing, there are so many command line programs available; process your data file with one program, pipe its output to another program for further processing, and so on. After two, five, or even ten pipes, the output appears in exactly the desired form; for example, I use this method to fetch a web page from a related site, filter it and massage it and display it when someone clicks to see my church's ministry schedule. Typically, I use:

• bash - shell
  
• vi - text editor
  
• bc - arbitrary-precision calculator
  
• awk, sed, grep, cut, tr, bash - data filters and manipulators
  
• zip, tar, cpio - manipulate data archives
  
• mv, cd, ls, rm, more, less, find, cat, chmod, man, wine, date - misc. programs
  
• wget, dig, traceroute, ssh, scp, openvpn - several networking-related programs
  
• lspci, lsusb, ps, route, sudo - misc. system-related stuff
  

You want to know what bash is? man bash will show you bash's manual page; man mv will show you the manual for the mv command.



Dual booting

With GRUB (GRand Unified Bootloader), switching between Winders and Linux is pretty much trivial. Install Winders (or use an existing Winders system). Then install your favorite/chosen Linux distrib. One of the last things it will do is look for other bootable OSen in the system and offer to enter them in the boot menu.



Virtual systems

If your system is new enough and has enough RAM, you could use Sun's VirtualBox, for instance, to run Linux in a virtual system on top of Winders. There are other VM systems; I'm partial to QEMU, since most of the other VM systems use parts of QEMU. And QEMU has a kernel module availabel, for both Linux and Winders, that will allow the VM to achieve near hardware speed even without virtualization support. You could use VirtualBox to test a number of different different distributions before finally selecting one to install. If you have a spare 100GB drive, you could install 10 different distribs and compare them all at once, all by using virtual systems, while never leaving the 'comfort' of Winders.



Required disk space

For your final installed system, expect to use the following partitioning:

• root - 10GB
  
• swap - 512MB-2GB, depending on how much RAM you have
  
• home - 50GB: you *will* download a lot of stuff!
  

I'd better stop now; this is probably enough to keep your eyes glazed over for a week.

 

[rbattelle]

Wow, good stuff Neal!

As I mentioned, I'm going to install Linux on its own hard drive, and do a "poor man's" dual boot - select the boot disk from the BIOS on startup.

Thanks for the comparison between Debian and Ubuntu. I run a somewhat older machine (AMD Athlon 64 w/ Uli 939 motherboard). It's a couple years old now, so I have no use for the "latest" hardware drivers. You've given me something to think about, and I think I'll look at Debian this evening.

I'm a little confused on the GUI. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that these distributions (Ubuntu / Debian) came bundled with their own GUI. That's not the case?

Ryan

 

[rbattelle]

Hey Neal, got up and running with Debian! Slowly trying to learn how to work it. So far the hardest part is simply knowing where things are located, particularly configuration files.

Right now I'm trying to figure out why my internet download speed is roughly half what it is in Windows. Network card is functioning normally, but Linux is only working at half speed for some reason.

Ryan

 

[fest3er]

Wow, good stuff Neal!

As I mentioned, I'm going to install Linux on its own hard drive, and do a "poor man's" dual boot - select the boot disk from the BIOS on startup.

Thanks for the comparison between Debian and Ubuntu. I run a somewhat older machine (AMD Athlon 64 w/ Uli 939 motherboard). It's a couple years old now, so I have no use for the "latest" hardware drivers. You've given me something to think about, and I think I'll look at Debian this evening.

I'm a little confused on the GUI. I was under the (mistaken?) impression that these distributions (Ubuntu / Debian) came bundled with their own GUI. That's not the case?

Ryan

I've just been retiring my dual socket 940 quad Opteron Asus mainboard which croaked itself recently. It was adequately fast. Oh well, sometimes things just don't last very long. Good thing is, Christmas simply came early this year: Giga-Byte 970, Phenom II 965, 8GB RAM. Now to install a 'bigmem' kernel so I can use all the memory. (Hmmm. I wonder if I have enough RAM to compile Smoothwall in a RAM disk... . ) And then to figure out the optimal configuration (voltages, timings, etc. ) for the RAM I bought

As to GUI, all distribs do come with an available GUI. It's not 'their own' GUI; rather, its one of the available FOSS GUI systems (Gnome, KDE, et al). They all use the X11 server as the 'system' behind the GUI. You can choose KDE, Gnome or some other scheme, then change later on to one of the others.

As to NIC speed, I vaguely recall encountering something like that a while back, but ATM, I've no clue as to why you're getting half speed. Usually, Winders eats Linux's dust when it comes to network speed. If I think of anything, I'll pop back in here.

 

[rbattelle]

Boy, I have to say I really could get into this Linux stuff. Takes me back to my youth, toying around with DOS command prompts. I'm roughly 48 hours into Linux and a bit overwhelmed - there's a ton to learn. But I do find it interesting and probably rewarding down the road.

Neal, one question I've recently come up with is, do I need a firewall with Linux? Looks like Debian doesn't have one by default. Now I'm looking at setting up a simple one with iptables.

Is there a chance someone could have stolen a port on me already, thereby cutting my speed?

8gb memory - obviously you must be running AMD64, as I am. What in the world are you going to do with all that memory?

Is there a good Linux forum you can recommend?

Ryan

 

[fest3er]

Boy, I have to say I really could get into this Linux stuff. Takes me back to my youth, toying around with DOS command prompts. I'm roughly 48 hours into Linux and a bit overwhelmed - there's a ton to learn. But I do find it interesting and probably rewarding down the road.



Neal, one question I've recently come up with is, do I need a firewall with Linux? Looks like Debian doesn't have one by default. Now I'm looking at setting up a simple one with iptables.



Is there a chance someone could have stolen a port on me already, thereby cutting my speed?



8gb memory - obviously you must be running AMD64, as I am. What in the world are you going to do with all that memory?



Is there a good Linux forum you can recommend?



Ryan

The one main thing to remember with Linux and Unix is that if you can think of a task you want to do, there are probably already tools in place to help you achieve that goal, if not tools that will do it already. Keep looking, probing and learning. There isn't much you cannot do with any decent GNU/Linux distrib.



As to a firewall, a standard Linksys-type firewall is adequate. Better would be the Linux-based Smoothwall firewall; but that'd require a second computer. And skipping forward a Q, I used to have 2GB RAM, but kept running out of memory; Linux can cache a lot of the filesystem in RAM. I'm working on a semi-custom version of Smoothwall (newer kernel, udev, initramfs and a few other features that Express v3. 0 does not have). Compiling the whole thing took 3-4 hours on my old Opteron/2GB RAM. But with this system, it seems to be a whole lot quicker. I think up to 5GB of file system gets cached, and not having to read stuff from disk makes the compile go a lot quicker; it may be down to 2. 5 hours start to finish.



There is also the rare occasion I have to edit (using GIMP) a very large picture; it can take a lot of RAM to do that (a 14Kx14K pixel image will use about 2GB RAM. Editting HD video can take lots of RAM, too. Also, running virtual machines (VMs) using QEMU, VirtualBox or other systems can use a lot of memory. I've been known to run XP in a VM, run an experimental version of Smoothwall in a VM, and other things. I may even experiment with setting up a 6GB RAM disk to see if compiling Smoothwall goes any quicker.



I'm still using 32 bit; haven't seen the need to switch to 64-bit just yet. I'll give it another year or so to stabilize and for 'them' to fully integrate 32-bit programs and libraries with the 64-bit system. It can be done and it works, but there's still a one or t'other attitude inertia that must be overcome in time.



Stealing a port is not terribly likely. However, to know for sure, you can tcpdump -i eth0 to view the traffic on your interface; you may have to use aptitude to install tcpdump, though. And, of course, you'll have a lot of reading to learn how to effectively use tcpdump. I've been using Linux for 8 years or so, and the only firewall I've used is the DD-WRT firmware for Linksys gateway/routers. I did use ClamAV for a while, but it really only protects any Winders systems nearby; I finally quit some years back. Just stay away from the usual suspects (file sharing software, for example) and you'll have few problems.



And going back to VMs, with Linux, you could set up a virgin Linux environment, and use that env in a VM just for reading email; and another instance of it to browse the web. That way your email and web browsing are segregated from your normal system, greatly reducing the possibility of potential infection. And do note that it is nearly impossible to install a 'root kit' on Linux. There are UNIX/Linux worms, virii and trojans, but very few because it isn't worth the effort, what with so many Winders systems out there ripe for the pickens.



Alas, I can't think of a Linux forum to recommend. I've been using Unix/Linux since the first computer I ever bought, an AT&T UNIX PC in '86. Then I hired on at Motorola, where they used lots of Sun workstations (SunOS, another Unix). By the time Linux came around, I was already familiar with a lot of the mechanisms. Learn the terminology (the 'lingo'), then use google to find what you need.

 

[rbattelle]

I'm still using 32 bit; haven't seen the need to switch to 64-bit just yet.

I thought 32-bit systems couldn't address more than ~4gb of ram? I guess I'm mistaken.



Ryan

 

[fest3er]

I thought 32-bit systems couldn't address more than ~4gb of ram? I guess I'm mistaken.



Ryan

Um, yes, you are. A 'big RAM' Debian kernel can address up to 64GB of RAM. "How can they do that with 32 bits?!~?" you ask, incredulous. Good question.



An individual process can address up to 4GB of RAM, because its programming is limited to 32 bit addresses. But the kernel and hardware can address much more, because of the wonders of virtual memory and virtual addresses. I've not looked into it much, but I think Linux may have 40-bit virtual addresssing; it may be as high as 48 bits these days. 64GB is only 36 bits; the other 4 bits worth is good for leaving 'open space' in a process' page tables.



Regardless of the trickery involved, a 32-bit process normally cannot address more than 4GB of memory, while a suitably-compiled 32-bit kernel (like the Debian 'bigmem' kernels) can control up to 64GB RAM. This is also why file systems on 32-bit systems (like Linux and Winders) can have files that are larger than 2GB (or 4GB); the kernel can handle those addresses.



This is a hand-waving illustrative glossification that may not be completely technically accurate. [Shirley, there's an OS pedant lurking on TDR somewhere. ] [Boy I love playing RP and adding editorial notes to my own posts. ]

 

[fest3er]

I've been busy since this thread started. I was in the midst of updating Smoothwall to kernel 2. 6. 26 and updating a lot of other software in it. I wanted a better firewall that would run on more modern hardware. I called it 'Phaeton': a large, open, comfortable vehicle for safe network travel. Since then, I updated it to kernel 2. 6. 32, got more of it working, and released Roadster (currently at Mark I, Mod 3).

I'm just finishing another basic upgrade to Phaeton, preparing -RC1. Most software in it is now very recent. OpenSwan (IPSEC VPN), Snort, ClamAV and many other packages are the latest versions (or nearly so); the kernel is now 2. 6. 35. It's known to boot on a very old laptop, finding all the hardware. The only stopper I know of ATM is the bootloader won't install on a circa 2000 Gateway PIII. Newer hardware isn't a problem; it runs great on a dual-core 15W atom. And as soon as I have the cash, there's a 5W device that looks very interesting.

A guy in Texas has been testing it (Phaeton/Roadster) since last January with 4 ports running at gigabit traffic levels. Constantly. It's never hiccupped.

So if you need a firewall for your home network, find a 4-6 year old desktop and try Roadster. Find it at Downloading and Installing Phaeton/Roadster.

 

[rbattelle]

Neal, are you the original developer of Smoothwall?

Your level of knowledge is far over my head.

-Ryan

 

[fest3er]

Neal, are you the original developer of Smoothwall?



Your level of knowledge is far over my head.



-Ryan

I've been doing software for, ... good God, it's been over thirty years now.



No, no, I didn't create it. Others started it 11-12 years ago. One or two are still at it. They have a commercial version of the product they sell. One of the originals split and started IPCop. I tried many of the available firewalls, and kept coming back to Smoothwall, and installed it at my church. I only started my 'improvements' around May, 2009.



I tired of the ancient software, truly irksome build system, and the GUI that adheres to few UI standards and guidelines, so I did something about it. So far I've enhanced the concrete plant (the build system), the footings (the kernel and low-level stuff) and the foundation (the rest of the software); I even tidied the UI a little. Now that that is all modern and stable, I can turn to the user interface, which desperately needs modernization. And in a friendly manner, I aimed my work at the development and testing end, to avoid implying that I was trying to replace the officially supported open-source version.



Will Smoothwall, Inc. , use much of it? Probably not. They say they've used some of what I've done in their ongoing work for the next version, but I've not seen much evidence of that. The open source version of Smoothwall is more like 'open core': a limited version that seems intended to convince people to buy the commercial version. But they open-sourced their product 'to see what the community can do with it'. Apparently I'm the first to take their challenge. They've been real quiet these past few months. And it sure hasn't helped that they've stifled community innovation all along. People just don't seem to want to contribute; I don't blame them; even I couldn't take being pounded down year after year.



I may yet fork my work completely to a new standalone product. It's getting to the point where the UI is going to undergo significant change anyway. I might even use some of the UI work they're doing for the next 'official' version. Basically, it comes down to building a better firewall that isn't so infuriatingly difficult to build from source. I suppose as long as they tolerate me hanging out on their forum, I can tolerate them.



As an analog, imagine building a Cummins engine from iron/aluminum/copper ore and coal. Picture all the steps required. Now, gank that construction process such that if *anything* goes wrong with *any* step (oops, this piston was miscast, or whoops, this serpentine belt is defective, or shucky-darn, that head bolt is soft), you have to throw it all out and start with the metal ores and the coal again. And the record of the work done so far is all in a single log book, in excruciating detail, from the beginning to present, so finding what went wrong is worse than drudgery. Oh, and the log consumes far more pages than the 3" 3-ring binder can hold, so the oldest pages of the log are removed and shredded as you add more pages unless you remember to have enough 3" 3-ring binders on hand.



I fixed all that. A very capable computer can build the whole thing, from source code to an ISO image ready to burn to disk, in about an hour. My desktop takes about 100 minutes now. A PIII could take 6 or more hours. And if something goes wrong (like you type a <CNTRL/C> in the build window or you forgot to install a needed program), you fix the problem and continue. Once you make it through the whole build system once, then you clean it all and do it again, knowing you'll make it through the build this time. (I've retained the rule that a build must run to completion with no interruptions or errors to be considered 'valid'; but I just can't understand making the build process so ... stubborn that even seasoned programmers have a hard time with it. ) Yeah, even *you* might be able to download the Phaeton sources and build it.

 

[subodh]

i recomend linux cause i hate vista and windows xp is to old so you cant update it after april. . but now with the new windows 7 i would use that or linux. . its many linux distros out there most userfriendly is ubuntu or open suse! i always use ubuntu but somehow i installed opensuse on my parents laptop and they love it! linux only has one downside not so many aps but for daily internet/mail/bills it will be somthing you love and no viruses

 

[rbattelle]

Let me share a recent frustration with Linux.



I want to make a backup copy of my favorite DVD, which happens to be in DVD9 format (dual layer).



And here I sit, in 2011, and I can't see my way clear to copy it in Linux (Debian testing). Several internet searches on the topic lead me to threads between 3 and 6 years old, whose information is long outdated.



The CD/DVD burning tool provided with my distribution, Brasero, asks me to insert my blank disk, but I have only 1 drive, so as soon as I insert the blank it asks me to insert the disk to copy! #@$%! (The "copy" button is grayed out, so there's no way to burn this disk with my single drive, and it won't let me burn to the HD first).



Eventually I'll figure this out, and it will likely take a couple hours. It is silly, however, that I have to figure it out at all. I should be able to stick my disk in the drive, click a button, and be off.



It's things like this - common tasks that should be a no-brainer - that keep me from recommending Linux to others. And I say that as someone who genuinely enjoys Linux, most of the time. Except times like this.



-Ryan

 

[fest3er]

I long ago gave up on GUI tools for CD/DVD work. For CD ripping, I use abcde (A Better CD Encoder); it can rip to ALL formats (wav, flac, mp3, ogg, etc. ) simultaneously. I think abcde is just about the best ripping tool, bar none. For a DVD, you should be able to 'dd if=/dev/sr0 of=my_dvd. img bs=1024k', then use dvd+rw_tools to record that image onto a blank. disk. Long ago, I wrote a shell script that enables me to write just about any format optical media (audio, cdrom, dvd, etc. ) Alas, it's gotten a little ragged from disuse and from trying to keep up with the Debian/Schilling dispute over cdrecord--Debian calls their version 'wodim', but it doesn't often work as well as Schilling's original.