Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Loaded Question: 4x4 mpg vs Lock Out hubs

[cerberusiam]

Hmmm... . if a post that is a contradiction in terms and a left handed insult is the most accurrate we are truly, truly in dire straits.



The good thing about these forums is the ability to post opinions and observations, no matter how nonsensical or contradictory or ridiculous or irrelevant they may be, for the readers to peruse.



The bad thing about these forums is the ability to post opinions and observations, no matter how nonsensical or contradictory or ridiculous or irrelevant they may be, for the readers to HAVE to peruse.



That sword cuts both ways. Most accurate indeed.

 

[HBarlow]

Well, it is an automatic truck. You did get that much right.

Lessee, the OP had upgraded injectors, a performance box, upgraded transmission, likely upgraded LP and and IP, upgraded exhaust manifold. About all he hasn't upgraded is the turbo and exhaust. Following a well documneted and established blue print for a balance of power\efficiency it would seem those items would be next up.

Since the injectors, pump, exhaust manifold have been changed then it would make sense, per Harvey's suggestion, that a turbo and exhaust better matched to all those pieces would be beneficial. Possibly a CAI of some type if the OP doesn't have one would also benefit. Maybe not a BIGGER turbo, but there is sure a BETTER turbo available than a stock HX35.

I would have to agree with the majority on a turbo and exhaust as next steps. The lockout hubs are a nice addition but purely for mileage concerns the OP isn't driving enough to warrant it. Pulling a TT is not going to be hard use so the unitized hubs are viable to 150k or better in that type of scenario. A turbo\exhaust would provide much more ROI and enhancments for a stepped up towing regimen.

I don't see a whole lot wrong with Cosmo's statements or reasoning. I would have to agree with him on several points:

1. The OP's empty mpg does seem low.

2. Harvey does in fact talk out his buttocks on occasion.




:-laf

That's true. I do occasionally shoot from the hip and express an opinion that is incorrect. Once in awhile I even write something that later on second thought even I realize was wrong. But that's okay, I'm just offering free opinions and advice. Some of my comments may be pretty stupid from time to time.

But I don't think I've slipped so far off the track as to claim that a Cummins inline six cylinder turbodiesel engine produces maximum torque at 2500 rpm as one of my TDR friends once did.

 

[mwilson]

But I don't think I've slipped so far off the track as to claim that a Cummins inline six cylinder turbodiesel engine produces maximum torque at 2500 rpm as one of my TDR friends once did.

We will let you know if you ever go that far out in left field..... Wow.



Mike.

 

[mwilson]

The risk in posting anything on here is that one may be proven wrong from time to time.



In my case I prefer to post and take my chances rather than sit back and wait for someone else to dive in.

Sometimes it takes a few posts for others to join in anyways.



I was a member for quite a few years before I stuck a toe in the water.



This is the best and only forum that I use. So much info on here it isn't even funny.



Also very easy to make a mistake as many of us are working and trying to help when we have a spare moment, try to proof it all but sometimes still miss something.



This is the best site ever even if we all knock a few out the buttocks on occasion. :-laf



Mike.

 

[HBarlow]

Watch me close, Mike. My advancing senility might cause me to start posting some really bizarre comments.

 

[Cosmo]

Harvey is 100% correct... .

Harvey, Sometimes I just love the NEW TDR crowd like Cosmo. Like Harv, I have been on TDR for a decade or so, and all the dead horse beatings I have seen just make me smile. The original poster makes known up front that his truck is an auto and Cosmo rattles on and on about aftermarket parts and pieces that will never pay back the invisible fuel gain he is referring to, especially on an automatic truck. After owning 10 dodge trucks I think factory settings with upgrades to improve life span, NOT power is the only way to make real life sense out of owning these trucks.

I'm sorry? Was there ANYTHING in my post that was incorrect? The good engineers at Cummins and Dodge put together a package that was competitive at the time it was manufactured, with an emphasis on longevity/reliability, economy, and towing/hauling power. Newer trucks have a much higher emphasis on EPA mandates, NVH, and even higher power, at the cost of longevity and economy.

What I stated, that you are implying is a bunch of lies, is that you can get more power and better economy from running a different tune. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. I also stated that a factory 3" exhaust is restrictive, and going larger than 4" for a <500hp truck is a waste of money. Everyone I know who has a Cummins truck who has modified it from factory stock, has seen gains in fuel economy when driven for economy. I think we all know that the VP44's lift pump was flawed, and an aftermarket lift pump/filter setup will provide more reliability.

Now, if you're going to throw insults at me and try to make me look bad, go ahead and tell the class what is incorrect with what I've said.

Yeah, me too.

Anyone with a keyboard can be an automotive or petroleum engineer. They show up here from time to time running off at the mouth like cosmo does but after awhile they disappear, probably tol move to one of the other websites where their ideas and opinions are common.

There's the funny part. You run your mouth 24/7, even when you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about. Someone needs to correct you, because others think that because you chime in on everything that you actually know what you're talking about and they might actually listen to what you're saying.

Then there are those of us who work on cars for a living... who work on diesel trucks for a living, who are members of diesel sled pulling groups with a ton of friends who also own and work on diesel trucks often, who just might know more than you do - and I bet that irks the hell out of you. Deal with it.

Well, it is an automatic truck. You did get that much right.

Lessee, the OP had upgraded injectors, a performance box, upgraded transmission, likely upgraded LP and and IP, upgraded exhaust manifold. About all he hasn't upgraded is the turbo and exhaust. Following a well documneted and established blue print for a balance of power\efficiency it would seem those items would be next up.

Since the injectors, pump, exhaust manifold have been changed then it would make sense, per Harvey's suggestion, that a turbo and exhaust better matched to all those pieces would be beneficial. Possibly a CAI of some type if the OP doesn't have one would also benefit. Maybe not a BIGGER turbo, but there is sure a BETTER turbo available than a stock HX35.

I would have to agree with the majority on a turbo and exhaust as next steps. The lockout hubs are a nice addition but purely for mileage concerns the OP isn't driving enough to warrant it. Pulling a TT is not going to be hard use so the unitized hubs are viable to 150k or better in that type of scenario. A turbo\exhaust would provide much more ROI and enhancments for a stepped up towing regimen.

I don't see a whole lot wrong with Cosmo's statements or reasoning. I would have to agree with him on several points:

1. The OP's empty mpg does seem low.

2. Harvey does in fact talk out his buttocks on occasion.




:-laf

Thank you.

But I don't think I've slipped so far off the track as to claim that a Cummins inline six cylinder turbodiesel engine produces maximum torque at 2500 rpm as one of my TDR friends once did.

I guess it would depend on the particular engine that you were talking about. It's entirely possible.

This stock HPCR 5. 9 seems to have made peak torque at about 2800 rpm.

#ad


(edit: Oh, that's miserably little... )
(edit2: Great, now it's miserably huge. Oh well. )
I know most of them are into the meat of their torque curve a lot lower though.

But I thought you had me on your ignore list...

 

[JMcCoy]

Of all my modifications, my 4" exhaust had the least return on investment. I noticed zero power or fuel milage gains. My exhaust manifold and intake manifold gave me slightly quicker spool up; no big difference though. The exaust, NOTHING. Oh, maybe more noise. I'm sure on super high hp competition rigs with a massive turbo and turning 5000 rpm the exhaust has a slight benefit in hp and egts. If your old exhaust is rotted out, go for it. You have to spend the money anyways. If your exhaust is ok, stay stock. Hope this helps.



Cosmo, you should fill out your signiture so we know what you have and where you are comming from.

 

[dclassens]

Careful JMcCoy, I think you post sounds a lot like Harveys and as evidenced in these replys nobody wants to hear what he has to say. :-laf

We all post a mix of opinion and facts. Harvey is no different than anybody else on this board and he is always getting butchered, and if once just once he may have some good knowledge... . well that is crazy.

I am no exception to the rule some is opinion and some is fact. Unfortunately we all don't respect each others opinion or fact.

Dave

PS~Some of Harveys opinions may differ from mine, except I can separate the junk and see how he is posting info from his years of experience with this stuff.
PSS~Cosmo, I may have somewhat blasted you but in retrospect, you usually post good knowledge and helpful data. Apologies if you were insulted... .

 

[HBarlow]

Yep, a few stubborn members prefer to believe nonsense and stubbornly defend it. It infuriates them when I point out the well known facts.

Joe Donnelly has been explaining for as long as I have been a member of TDR that modifications to the intake or exhaust will make no difference whatsoever to performance, fuel economy, longevity, or anything else.

 

[cerberusiam]

We will let you know if you ever go that far out in left field..... Wow.

Mike, now you see what you have let yourself in for. Better get yourself a support group for that task. :-laf:-laf As frequently demonstrated, the amount of "slippage" in the cognitive drive train is approaching critcality. Careful how you approach that left field line as it is a very, very short slide into delusional grandeur.

Joe Donnelly has been explaining for as long as I have been a member of TDR that modifications to the intake or exhaust will make no difference whatsoever to performance, fuel economy, longevity, or anything else.

Classic!!! Can't wait for the next installment. Something like:



<object width="640" height="360"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/634BCKHyvhM&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/634BCKHyvhM&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="640" height="360"></embed></object>

 

[Cosmo]

Of all my modifications, my 4" exhaust had the least return on investment. I noticed zero power or fuel milage gains. My exhaust manifold and intake manifold gave me slightly quicker spool up; no big difference though. The exaust, NOTHING. Oh, maybe more noise. I'm sure on super high hp competition rigs with a massive turbo and turning 5000 rpm the exhaust has a slight benefit in hp and egts. If your old exhaust is rotted out, go for it. You have to spend the money anyways. If your exhaust is ok, stay stock. Hope this helps.



Cosmo, you should fill out your signiture so we know what you have and where you are comming from.

I'm actually selling my truck, taking a bunch of equity out of it to put the wife and baby into a better car. I'm hoping to find a decent 24-valve for myself as well. Currently I've got an 08 6. 7 auto 4x4. I'm running an airdog, 4" turbo back exhaust, and a programmer. The truck weighs about 7500 pounds with me in it and runs a 13. 8 with me behind the wheel. Seeing as how it was my first night ever at a 1/4 mile strip, I'm sure it'll hit 13. 5 with a better driver. I melted the underdrive clutches a while ago and tore the trans down, rebuilding it with the Suncoast m3ga rebuild kit, shift kit, TCM, billet flexplate, and their HD torque converter.





For stock power levels, I doubt there is much of a gain on a 12/24valve truck in going with a muffled 4" exhaust. Are they not running 3" from the factory?



I don't doubt that even with mildly elevated power levels there is little actual gain - but if you're pushing 300-400ish wheel horsepower, the factory exhaust can become a bit of a restriction.



If the advertised claims are correct, my truck should be putting about 500 hp and 1100 lb-ft to the dyno rollers. I do know that at high RPM (I run stock RPMs) my exhaust velocity is pretty fierce, and that might be causing a bit of a restriction. Would I see gains by going to 5"? Probably not enough to justify the cost.

PSS~Cosmo, I may have somewhat blasted you but in retrospect, you usually post good knowledge and helpful data. Apologies if you were insulted... .

No worries. Sometimes I do need to be corrected, but I try not to talk directly out my rear. There's usually a reason for what I say - personal experience or research I've done.

Yep, a few stubborn members prefer to believe nonsense and stubbornly defend it. It infuriates them when I point out the well known facts.



Joe Donnelly has been explaining for as long as I have been a member of TDR that modifications to the intake or exhaust will make no difference whatsoever to performance, fuel economy, longevity, or anything else.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. Modifications to the intake or exhaust ALONE will make no difference. I have no qualms agreeing with that, however with modifications to the fuel system or turbo, the intake/exhaust should be accordingly modified.



Are we talking about Congressman Joe Donnelly?

 

[Nyoest]

Just so you don't have to look at my signature, I have a '98 24V 1 ton dually 4x4 auto transmission. Great truck, dependable. It just likes to sip heavier on fuel than I wish to enjoy. The TQ has almost zero slip once the engine is over 1500 RPM. 93% SunCoast triple disc TQ. As a matter of reference, left idling and in drive, the truck on flat ground will upshift into 3rd and make 22-24 mph w/o touching the throttle.



I retired a year ago, finances are lining up to let me hook up to the 34' TT and start sight seeing.



So far, empty MPG is 12. 0 to 14. 0 if I am a good boy. Truck weighs 7,800 unloaded and about 35 gallons of fuel. It will hold 85 gal/fuel. With the TT hooked up, it gets 9 or 10ish on level ground. The TT weighs 7,700 empty before loading for trips. So, figure I will be about 15,000 ready for the road.



Question: Is it worth while to install Lockout Hubs on this truck? Will the possible improvement in MPG ever pay for itself?



I will never be driving huge distances in a given year, I speculate the standard 10,000/year might be all it does. The truck has 134,000 miles on it now.



I am satisfied with the way it runs now, but am wondering if a bigger exhaust would help EGTs and MPG? maybe a larger turbo if the one I have gets tired? I never push it harder than 27-28 psi.

Just I case anyone forgot, this was his question.



The empty mileage jumps right out at me. That is terrible for any gear ratio 24v. What is your normal empty driving routine/style?



You will never live long enough to see a payback from the locking hubs. Under normal use the unitized hubs hold up.

 

[John - K5AWO]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <wunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if !mso]><object classid="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui></object> <style> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table. MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5. 4pt 0in 5. 4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:. 0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10. 0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]--> 11/19/2011 8:57 PM


Hi guys!

A lot of water has run under the bridge since my opening post.

As for the MPG this truck gets, it has never, ever, done better than 15 mpg.

I am a light footed fellow, and drive with the cruise control most of the time. I set the cruise for 2100 rpm and that is where it stays.

I have moved from Phoenix, AZ to Oologah, OK which is 35 miles north of Tulsa on Hwy 169.

My dually made 3 round trips pulling different trailers each time. The 1st trailer was about 12,000 lbs loaded, and the 2nd trailer was about 14,000 lbs loaded. My mpg on all 3 trips was 10. 0 pulling loaded regardless of up/dn/with wind/against wind. Didn't seem to make any difference.

On a few hills south of Payson, AZ and around Albuquerque, the EGTs pushed 1300 for a short bit. I did not like that, but geared it down and pushed more air into the manifold.

I think that a better turbo would help me out quite a bit. However, at the moment, the way I drive it, I doubt seriously that a larger exhaust would help my MPGs at all. I just don't push it hard enough to benefit from that IMO.

My driving style is like this.
Green light, throttle down to 1850 rpm and just wait until the truck upshifts and locks the TQ. Then I push to match the speed limit, or 2100 rpm which for my truck is 61. 5 mpg by GPS.

Once again, I wish to thank each and every one of you for your responses. Each is salted down a bit, and I learn from every one of them.

Thanks,
John
Oologah, Oklahoma
Back home again in God's country.
Left that 115* desert heat behind me for good. Being retired gives me that option J