Longish cranking times

[CoastyAV8R]

I've read tons of posts about long cranking times for trucks but I haven't found one just like what I see so here it is. I've owned 4 CTD's (92, 01ETH, 04. 5 and now my 03) and all of them started within a the first rotation of the engine when I started it except my current truck which is a 2003 6spd, 2wd with the 305 hp common rail motor. It takes about 2-3 seconds to start and once it does it runs great with no white smoke or hesitation anywhere and it gets great mileage and it pulls our toyhauler like it wasn't even there.



I bought it a year ago when I moved back to the states from Hawaii and I changed out all the fluids to include the fuel filter and then drove it from Oregon to New Jersey without any issues, just the longer than what I'm' use to crank times from the day I bought it. Fuel pressure is 8-9 psi and no unusual boost or pyro readings and I've never noticed any fuel in the engine oil (the smell of it or an increase in my oil level).



Any ideas?



Thanks,

Patrick

 

[Msilbernagel]

Patrick,



Bought it a year ago - so it had some miles...



You mention the pressure is 8-ish psi, that is after the fuel filter? (not plugged, is it?)



Leaking injector - Diagnostic: DRBIII can turn them off individually, you can also get a special part to close the line to a given injector, which if it's leaking would stop the leak and give you the fast start. Danger of a leaking injector is that if it fails with enough fuel dumping into the cyl, you can ruin the block because it "washes" the oil off the cylinder walls and scores piston/cyl.



Leaking COV - the common-rail overflow valve (mid-rail, vertical going up, looks like 1/2-inch pipe with tube exiting the top) will also fail when the internal needle gets dirty or worn. "Boxes" which raise the pressure strain it and cause premature failure (Bully-dog has a rep here). Diagnostic: You can block it off with a bolt but I don't recommend running that way - they're there for a reason. When mine did this, my lift-pump had an increasingly difficult time keeping pressure with any kind of load. Looked like a fuel filter problem until one day I actually "heard" the high-pressure squirting inside!



Crank Position Sensor / Cam Position Sensor - I understand that if one isn't working it'll start with the other, but has to "watch" for enough pulses to get the timing right. Don't know how to diag this, but you could disconnect one or the other and see if it makes a difference. Perhaps someone with more grey hair can chime in.



Alternatives - clean air filter, boost look Ok?, there's no CAT in that model year but any chance of blockage (unlikely). Check battery & cables: low-voltage at ECM? Lastly, FCM on inlet to CP3 - again, seems unlikely.



My thoughts on "most likely"? Perhaps injector, followed by COV. I'd lean toward injector if your post-filter pressure is high enough. The long crank times are due to a slow build up of pressure in the rail - because the CP3 is fighting the leak.





Good luck!



Mark

 

[p-Bar]

Coasty, maybe this:TSB
14-003-06 All Cummins diesel diagnostics.
Revised diagnostic procedures are available for the following conditions:

* Engine cranks for a long time or will not start
* White smoke and/or misfi re after starting when the engine temperature is below 150° F
* Engine surges at idle
* Engine sounds

The 11-page bulletin gives the service technician a set of revised diagnostic procedures for the fuel system. Each condition is discussed and possible causes are established. Step-by-step instructions help the technician identify and repair the problem. The bulletin supersedes TSB 14-003-05.

 

[sag2]

It sounds perfectly normal. The third gens had to wait for the cam and crank sensors to sync up before it would start firing the injectors. Compared to what sounded like one revolution to start an 02 or earlier, the third gens seemed to crank forever.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

Guys,
Thanks so much for the info. I forgot to mention that the truck had 70,000 miles on it when I bought and currently has 76,000. The runs great which is the thing that really baffles me, no smoke, smooth idle and acceleration and when I bought it got all new fluids and filters.

The DRBIII tool tip is amazing mainly because I had never heard of it being able to shut off injectors one at a time, sounds like something I'll have to buy.

I'm curious what you consider normal lift pump pressures? The one on this truck isn't the original one, I'm not sure how long it's been on the truck but you can tell it's been replaced. I have a spare in waiting just in case.

I'll look for the complete TSB as well and I guess I'll have to listen to another 3rd gen truck start to see how mine compares as far as start times. There aren't many diesels here in NJ for some reason...

 

[SWithrow]

Guys,
Thanks so much for the info. I forgot to mention that the truck had 70,000 miles on it when I bought and currently has 76,000. The runs great which is the thing that really baffles me, no smoke, smooth idle and acceleration and when I bought it got all new fluids and filters.

The DRBIII tool tip is amazing mainly because I had never heard of it being able to shut off injectors one at a time, sounds like something I'll have to buy.

I'm curious what you consider normal lift pump pressures? The one on this truck isn't the original one, I'm not sure how long it's been on the truck but you can tell it's been replaced. I have a spare in waiting just in case.

I'll look for the complete TSB as well and I guess I'll have to listen to another 3rd gen truck start to see how mine compares as far as start times. There aren't many diesels here in NJ for some reason...

I had the same problem last week, then the lift pump went. I replaced it and the truck fires up first time. My two cents.

 

[rholcom2]

Maybe this should be a new thread;, I will ask it anyway. Suppose you isolate 1 injector that "significantly reduces the crank time" and go on to replace just one injector. What are you seeing as far as longevity of the remaining injectors. I spoke with a shop that suggested that once a single injector was replaced the others would soon follow suit.

 

[SShafranko]

Coasty, I'm in north Jersey and i'd be happy to let you hear my truck start. I also have three friends two with 06's and one with 05 who would also assist you. The only problem is i am in north Jersey although i will be in Toms River probably this weekend. If you want shoot me a PM and maybe we can meet.



Sasha

 

[CoastyAV8R]

Thanks Sasha for the offer. I figure if I hang out in the Home Depot parking lot long enough I'll hear plenty of CTD's come through there, plus if you show up with your "blinged" out truck, mine would probably become depressed since it's a plain jane. I've had an a 93, 01 and an 04 CTD before this one and this 03 is by far the longest one to crank before it lights off. I'm going to chase down the rail pressure because if I see low rail pressure I know I have a leaking injector. If I see good rail pressure I'm most likely looking at a commonrail overflow valve (COV) or possibly a cam/cranks sensor problem. When I figure it out I'll post it so others may have some data to look back on.

I saw the quadzilla rail pressure gauge but I don't know if it uses info off of the COV for display and if it does then a bad COV would be giving bad info on the read out, is that correct? Or is the rail pressure sensor a separate entity from the COV?

The Quadzilla Rail Pressure Gauge For Dodge Ram Cummins Diesel - Diesel @ Off-Road.com

 

[TCDiesel]

Generally long crank times are associated with Bad FCA,Lack of Volume (Lift),LV, Pressure sensor, Injectors would be last on My List for Long crank times, CAM and Crank are rarely connected to Long crank. No start is more like CAM. Crank Sensor.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

I have a fuel pressure gauge and it's @ 8-9 psi. Are there any troubleshooting techniques that would help simplify the process? The LV you have listed as a possibility, is that for the Lack of Volume?



Thanks,

Patrick

 

[TCDiesel]

(LV) Limiting Valve, after popping off (XXX) it becomes weak and will get to the point of leaking continually. The Pressure sensor has to be replaced B/C their is no known way of checking it. 8-9 is good. Pat Contact us, it's much easier for me to explain the procedure via Phone.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

I will call you.

I was also wondering about the crossover tubes? The truck runs great and idles smooth, it's just doesn't fire up as quickly as a normal 2003 CTD does.

 

[Amise]

I have an 05 with the same problem. Long crank time but runs great and idels perfect.

It has been that way since day one when i picked it up at the dealer. Because i am getting close to the end of the warrenty i decided i better take it in and see what is up.

It is at the dealer right now and i just talked to the mechanic working on it. This is what he is telling me. I have 4 bad injectors they are flowing like 360 ml when they should be flowing according to him and the spec sheet like 250ml. So it does not make alot of since to me but it would explain the little white puff of smoke i get when she lights off. He said it is too much and it is flooding it out on the start up. So i get a new set of six injectors and i should have it back Monday. I will let you know how it is when i get it back. He also told me that the reflash for the long crank very rarley fixes the problem.

Im keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[CoastyAV8R]

Actually I understand why the high flowing injectors would make your truck hard to start only because I have been really trying to understand how everything interacts with each other. If your injectors are leaking, which yours must be because of the white puff of smoke when you start it, it doesn't allow the rail pressure to build up as quickly as it should, hence the longer cranking time. Your lucky to get a set of injectors out of the deal, you'll have to chime back in and let me know how it starts after you get it back. Did you buy the truck new?

 

[Amise]

Well i got my truck back yesterday and all seems well. According to the work order it was flowing 350 mL threw the return line and was not firing enough at the injector. I guess that is what i get for listening to the service wrighter and the mechanic. I was kinda confused to what they where telling me. But the good thing is i have about 15 key cycles on it and all seems well it starts and runs fine and no white smoke. I will let you know if things change.

 

[rholcom2]

Weekend Install

Generally long crank times are associated with Bad FCA,Lack of Volume (Lift),LV, Pressure sensor, Injectors would be last on My List for Long crank times, CAM and Crank are rarely connected to Long crank. No start is more like CAM. Crank Sensor.

Obviously this question is not for TWest only, but thought I would point out where my thought/question was coming from.





This weekend I installed the ISSPRO EV2 Rail Pressure and Fuel Pressure (Lift Pump Pressure). My truck was exhibiting a "long crank" time, or what I think is a long crank time, thus my gauge purchase/install. Upon installing the gauges I am surprised at how much fluctuation there is in not only the Rail Pressure but the fuel pressure. Regardless, I believe the gauges show a definate issue with my lift pump. FYI - my 04. 5 has not had the fuel pump update, therefore it is still located on the side of the motor. Anyway, with the key on the fuel pressure (lift pump) shows ~10 psi. Upon start up it fluctuates from ~5 - ~10. While cruising it will linger around this same range ~5-~10. But, at WOT or a fast start (petal to the metal) the fuel pressure will be down in the range of 0-2. 5 or so. With this information I feel it evident that the lift pump needs to be replaced. As far as the rail pressure, I noticed it is somewhat difficult to know exacly what pressure your rail is under at start up. But, I do believe that I am seeing ~3,000-~5,000 upon startup and no greater than ~25,000 during WOT. Taking into account that the lift pump must be replaced (correct me if I am wrong) and looking at the rail pressures is it able to deduce that I do NOT have a bad injector(s)? Note, other than the long crank time the truck exhibits no other symptoms (i. e. no white smoke, no rough idle).



It is pretty cool when the wife clears you to buy an AirDog immediately after she has held the flashlight for you to finish up the gauge installation!

 

[bsappington]

I had the same issue with my 04 at 80,000 miles. It turned out to be 2 bad injectors.



The easiest way to check is by removing the banjo bolt on the top of the Rail Pressure Relief Valve. Carefully bend the line a little ways away from the relief valve. Have some one crank over the truck but do not let it start. If fuel come out of the relief valve it is done. Replace it. If fuel comes out of the line that the banjo bolt come out of then it is most likely a bad injector. This is what happened to me. I pulled the injectors and took them to DDP. They have a test bench and found two bad injectors. Now the truck starts much better.



There are other things it could be ( connecting tubes or leaking nozzles ect. ) but this is a good place to start.



Hope this helps.

 

[AKaiser]

I had an "intermittent long crank" that was really a problem if I stalled it out somehow. Once I programmed it with my S-06 Smarty, bingo, problem solved. Don't know if it's newer software from corporate, or specific to the Smarty, but haven't had the problem for two years. It's not as quick to start as a mechanical like my Dad's tractors with either DT466 or 1990 vintage C 8. 3s, but not more than a second or two.

 

[DF5152]

(LV) Limiting Valve, after popping off (XXX) it becomes weak and will get to the point of leaking continually. The Pressure sensor has to be replaced B/C their is no known way of checking it. 8-9 is good. Pat Contact us, it's much easier for me to explain the procedure via Phone.

What is the limiting valve and where is it and where is the pressure sensor you speak of? How do you diagnose a bad connecting tube? I recently plugged my relief valve and the truck runs much better but still not what it was... .