LORENZ vs Kore, A REAL WORLD BEATING and the RESULTS

[Baja_Mike]

BajaMike, We can probably round a truck or two up. Maybe a 100 miles or more offroad at moderate to high speeds? A big Baja trip maybe? Mojave? Could be fun.



KP

We'll be down prerunning quite a bit this year anyway so it sounds like fun. We should definately get together and just go out and have fun with these trucks (what these trucks were intended to do) instead of this internet drama. Oo.



Thuren, this would be a good opportunity to test out your "trench diggers" :-laf

 

[THUREN]

There are TONS of variables which can sway findings in either direction. The only way to know EXACTLY how different shocks will respond to heat is to use the exact same spring rate, same truck, and then valve accordingly. You can't even compare the shims used and say... . use the "same" valving. Different brands use different shim diameters, fulcrum points(ID's), and piston orifice flow rates.



Also, since we all use different springs and rates it's hard to compare the actual "shock" function. .



Best way to do it is just go out with multiple trucks, play follow the leader, and all stop and check the shocks at the same time...



I'm game sounds like fun.....

 

[THUREN]

Thuren, this would be a good opportunity to test out your "trench diggers" :-laf

Got to test them over the weekend a bit. .



Ran a short track made by a local with a class 7 course on his property. The CTD was working gooooood... Tooks hits as good as his 07 F-150 just built by Dirt-Worx I think. . Coilovers, fabbed spindles, wider track front, deavers, tripple bypass, yada yada...

 

[Bob4x4]

Best way to do it is just go out with multiple trucks, play follow the leader, and all stop and check the shocks at the same time...



I'm game sounds like fun.....

We did that 1 1/2-2 years ago,maybe Sean remembers the #s,I remember there was about a 10 degree spread between all the 2. 5's a bit more for the std shocks.



Bob

















i s

 

[Lorenz]

We did that 1 1/2-2 years ago,maybe Sean remembers the #s,I remember there was about a 10 degree spread between all the 2. 5's a bit more for the std shocks.

All of the 2. 5, FOX's, Sway-a-Ways, and Kings, all ran between 175-180*. We were all running different valving and different spring rates. I could tell by looking at the trucks when I passed you guys... . :-laf I know I was running the hardest vavling that weekend, but it didn't show up in the temps. We would've had to run hard for an hour+ before the valving differences would show up in the temps.



The guys running OEM replacement shocks were so hot they would scald you with a touch. I didn't think to put the IR temp gauge to them until they were cool.



Here's the funny thing. We didn't come close to running the 2. 5's to their potential. Yet I still felt unsafe hitting the whoops wide open with out a full cage; those days are over. I'll keep the buggy, and the 5 point racing harness for that type of lunacy. It keeps the repair bills down too. :{

 

[HLewallen]

I want to be the first to say that if anyone wants to donate a suspension for my 07. 5 when it gets here, I will gladly participate in any lunacy we want to call an experiment. I not expecting anything, but you gotta try. Back in high school I sent a graduation announcement to Hugh Hefner. Same idea.



Next: kparker, I will try to be as clear as possible as to why your example is flawed. You need to understand what a "heat sink" is. It is simply material in the system capable of storing heat energy in a manner that controls the temperature of something that is important and temperature sensitive. In a shock, the oil is the something important and it is the heat sink. Unless you are using a shock with thicker walls or different materials, two shocks with the same oil capacity will have the same heat capacity (a given heat input will produce the same change in overall temperature). If anything, the rubber hose connecting the reservoir to the shock will just decrease the shock's capability to release heat to the environment because the hose material is a good insulator. Saying that two shocks that have the same heat capacity will have different operating temperatures because one keeps it's heat capacity speparated into two containers is non-sensical. Unless of course you are saying the RR shock will run hotter locally due to less efficient heat transfer.



Shocks remove energy from the suspension, and turn it into heat. How much heat is created depends on many variables (driving style, vehicle weight, shock valving, etc. ). This topic started a long time ago, with a different subject, but I think the topic now is remote reservoir vs. larger diameter conventional shock in the area of heat management. I could be wrong though.



If we are discussing "Lorenz 2. 25" vs. "KORE 2. 0 RR" we are going to have a real problem. I know Lorenz posted some info about a measureable temperature difference following a drive - and it was interesting - but there are a lot of assumptions included. Same drive and same speed is hopefully obvious, but could one system have gone faster without fade? Did the performance before fade impart an advantage in control or damage control to one truck? I would not assume temperature alone determines how a shock is doing. It is like brakes - if one system has better fluid and seals, it will be performing well at high temperatures. What if one shock has better oil and valves that resist cavitation? The only impartial way to test one system vs. another would include a closed track, several examples of each system on identical trucks, and a blindfolded panel of experienced drivers. Remember to remove the blindfolds after they are in the truck and before they start it, then record whatever data serves the question you are trying to answer.



I think the remote reservoir question comes down to this: how does the advantage of greater oil capacity in a RR shock trade off with the disadvantage of restricted heat conduction due to the "remote" nature of the reservoir?



Despite what I said about the sanity of comparing the two systems, can someone verify two things for me: (1)What are the oil capacities for a SAW 2. 25 and a Fox 2. 0RR, and (2)the volume of oil contained in the standard length hose on a Fox 2. 0RR compared to the volume of oil displaced by a full stroke of a Fox 2. 0 shock. I think this will in no way answer the question "which is better?" I only want to understand the systems we are talking about.

 

[Matt S]

The guys running OEM replacement shocks were so hot they would scald you with a touch. I didn't think to put the IR temp gauge to them until they were cool. {

I think mine are still warm.

 

[brods]

Interesting discussion so far, though I think everyone is missing the boat on oil volume. Adding more oil volume simply means more thermal mass, which will just increase the time it takes the shock to heat up. Removing heat is the key. It is likely that in order to accommodate the extra oil volume the shock system becomes physically bigger and therefore has more surface area. It is the increased surface area that makes the shock run cooler, not the extra oil. Take two identical shocks bodies, give one more oil in an insulated remote reservoir and I bet they will both eventually reach the same operating temperature, even though one has more oil.



So HLewallen, rather than inquire what the different shocks’ oil volumes are, a better question may be what are the shocks exposed surface areas. As you have alluded to in your post, not all surface area will be of equal heat exchanging value though. The main shock body will be exposed to the hottest and highest velocity oil (minimizing the thickness of the insulating boundary layer of oil that builds up at the surface of the cool metal) so it will have higher heat transfer value per square inch than the rr will.



An interesting thought, the shock rod will be exposed to the hot oil and then atmosphere as the shock cycles. I wonder what effect the larger rods have on heat transfer.

 

[Bob4x4]

So a large body shock with an oversize shaft and a piggy backed resevoir with aluminum welded tubing should shed some heat :-laf Is it Possible that King understands?



Bob

 

[ASchwartz]

I think mine are still warm.

Mine faded right before they allowed the weight of the truck to bend the front axle. They are now sitting in my shed, if anyone is interested.



Avi

 

[jtnm]

Getting closer

Got home this evening from work had these bad boys sitting on the door step. These are some goodlookin shox.

 

[Lorenz]

It is the increased surface area that makes the shock run cooler

This discussion was had on another desert racing forum. I'm happy that we now see it here.



The 2. 5 Sway-a-Ways have threaded bodies standard. I'd be interested in finding the thermal dissipation properties in this set up vs a smooth body shock. The threads create a larger surface area. It's a small version of adding a heat sink with fins on it. I doubt it drops temps more than 10*?



Here's a couple of comparison shots that we put up on the website.



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[jtnm]

I happened to snap a picture or two of one of the roads today around town, it is one of the many smooth highway roads I run daily. Not to bad when it is has dried out then you happen to look off to your left then happen to fall into them stinking ruts while your running 50 or 60mph hahhahha!!!

 

[jtnm]

This one is funny

I had to laugh at this one, I know it does not have to do anything with the thread of Lorenz vs kore suspensions but I had to post up this one of some of the area photos we deal with when it rains in this area. This rig (water hauler) tried crossing one of the washes while it was running after a big rain HAHHHA he almost made it, yeah right he did not get to far he still had 75 yards to go hahhahahha! The picture does not do this truck any justice on the size of the truck, it is a smack semi cab with a big ole tank on the back to haul water produced by a gas well just like a turd herder truck on the size of the truck. Thats why you do not cross the washes while they are running like the mississipi in North West New Mexico HAHAAAHAHA!.

 

[jtnm]

Sorry one more

Don't laugh guys but here is a piece of you know what ford I had to pull out one day. I felt like posting a few pictures I had.

 

[ENafziger]

Hey JTNM,



Thanks for the updates! Have you started installing the 2. 25" kit yet? --Eric

 

[THUREN]

Interesting discussion so far, though I think everyone is missing the boat on oil volume. Adding more oil volume simply means more thermal mass, which will just increase the time it takes the shock to heat up. Removing heat is the key.

Exactly why a remote reservoir works much better in the "long run". The internals of the remote reservoir itself are less than half filled with fluid. The tail end of the reservoir being empty(nitrogen) is turned into a true heat sink as the reservoir is aluminum. If we can all agree that the fluid "does" exchange from the res to the body, it's a no brainer that the reservoir does work like a small radiator...

 

[Baja_Mike]

Exactly why a remote reservoir works much better in the "long run". The internals of the remote reservoir itself are less than half filled with fluid. The tail end of the reservoir being empty(nitrogen) is turned into a true heat sink as the reservoir is aluminum. If we can all agree that the fluid "does" exchange from the res to the body, it's a no brainer that the reservoir does work like a small radiator...

But Fox and SAW use steel resi's

 

[THUREN]

But Fox and SAW use steel resi's

Doh



Heavier duty but not as good as a heat conductor. .



Pro's and cons...

 

[HLewallen]

Exactly why a remote reservoir works much better in the "long run". The internals of the remote reservoir itself are less than half filled with fluid. The tail end of the reservoir being empty(nitrogen) is turned into a true heat sink as the reservoir is aluminum. If we can all agree that the fluid "does" exchange from the res to the body, it's a no brainer that the reservoir does work like a small radiator...

Yes, as I alluded to in my last post, if you want to understand the system you must take into account the shock's ability to release heat to the atmosphere (conduction, convection, radiation). Heim joints (with just a little teflon maybe) could actually conduct heat away from the shock if the shock gets hotter than the mount and frame. Poly mounts are pretty good insulators. Surface area impacts how much heat is radiated and transferred to the air. So now (if we are still talking 2. 0 Fox RR vs. SAW 2. 25) you must take into account the larger diameter and longer main body length of the SAW (taller mounts means a longer shock - usually). Not that I am arguing anything specific, just pointing out that merely saying RR means more surface area is not true - need numbers. If I were to guess, I would put money on an aluminum body shock dumping more heat due to it's thermal conductivity - but then there's those mounts . . . I hate guessing. But, in this case, I don't think the shocks capability as heat exchangers is the real story . . .



In desert racing, where shocks are working continuously turning suspension energy into heat and dumping that heat to the environment, the shocks could actually reach STEADY STATE. That means, if they were designed well, they reach a temperature where they are dumping as much heat as they create. In order to reach this state at a temperature where the shock can still function, the shocks capability to dump heat is very important. This is not the application we are talking about here.



Neither of the systems I think we are still talking about were designed to perform that long at that rate of heat exchange - that's what the 2. 5s and up are for. The shocks heat up because they are generating much more heat than they are releasing. These systems perform for a period of time, and then fade. In that application, heat capacity has a greater impact on determining how long the system will work before fading.



Now if both manufacturers are claiming the last paragraph is not true in so much as these systems can perform all day, then I am not sure the temperature they run at means a darn thing. Not fading is not fading, and higher temps may mean a system that is tuned to get more work out of what it's got - or not.



And just to defend physics - anything that is empty is by definition a horrible heat sink. Thermal mass makes a heat sink. Empty is also an inefficient radiator - the oil needs to be in contact to transfer heat to the body (luckily, aluminum is a good conductor). That's like saying running your cooling system a little low so the radiator is half empty is a great way to keep your engine temp down.