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Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) LP thoughts...(long)

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OK, I have this theory concerning lift pumps used in our trucks...



The primary mystery to me has revolved around the fact that most pumps live a relatively normal lifespan - I have no particular complaint about a LP failing at 80,000 miles or more - but AM puzzled at those cases where a guy has repeated, multiple failures within 30,000 or so!



Could these pumps REALLY be that poorly designed and manufactured? My common sense and disassembly of sample pumps tell me NO - that after you allow for that small but inevitable number of cases where defects DO occur, some other factor must be at work - and here's what *I* think is happening.



I think there IS a poor design problem relative to the LP - but NOT the pump, but the CONNECTORS selected and used by DC to power them! Careful inspection of these connectors tells me they simply are NOT capable of carrying the needed amount of current the pump requires under full load. Sure, if all is perfect, and a GOOD full surface connection is obtained and maintained in that connector, it will probably last - but a poor or degraded connection will sacrifice current flow, cause intermittent or erratic pump operation, and possibly damage the pump itself due to long term low-current operation.



SOOoo, guy takes his "failed" LP to the dealer, who verifies low pump pressure, and installs a new pump - lo and behold, all is well - for a little while! The act of unplugging to old pump, and plugging in the new one restores some of the corroded/damaged contact area inside the engine side of the pump plug, and at least for a while, provides a completely new contact area on the pump side - until more miles and use repeat the pitting/erosion of contact all over again!



Eventually, the owner gets disgusted with the stock setup, and perhaps adds a pusher pump - then all seems well - so guy figures THAT was what was really needed - it undoubtedly helps, but maybe not entirely for the assumed reason! The new pusher pump assists the stock LP, and reduces total pump load and current draw - pulling that current draw down to a level the lousy DC power connector can now handle in a reasonable fashion...



The same may hold true for these other fancy fuel systems popping up for sale for our trucks - they probably ARE a better fuel system than the stocker - but *I* would bet their GREATEST advantage would be use of better connectors than what DC provides as stock equipment for these trucks.



For reference, the connectors used for various low-current sensors on my old ‘91 frequently went bad a well, resulting in low/no oil pressure readings, etc. , and always returned to normal after a thorough cleaning of the plug - and they were the same type plug used on the LP's on our trucks!



I had a LP problem on my own truck last trip out with our RV - replaced the pump with my backup, but carefully inspected the plug pins on the "failed" LP itself, and with a magnifying glass saw evidence of pitting that is typical of what I am talking about - pressure testing of the LP itself out of the truck after disassembly revealed no discernable mechanical problems, showed the pump to functioning perfectly - so it is now my spare!



IF this problem reoccurs, I will permanently solder leads directly to the LP, seal them with RTV, and convert to a larger, more reliable connector capable of greater current - and junk what DC has provided...



Just FYI - and food for thought...
 
Interesting observations. Not many (including myself) have looked at the wiring as the source of the problems.



I do agree with you in the respect that the OEM LP is a good pump, I just feel that it is in the wrong location.



It would be interesting to see the results after a couple years of the modified wiring that you propose to see if it does any good.
 
Somewhere a while back, I saw a post with readings as to amp draw of the stock LP at various PSI - seems the max was around 5 amps at full PSI - I personally would consider the DC connector good for no more than 3 amps continuous, max.



Interesting that the fella I got my backup LP from as part of a disassembly analysis I was involved in, removed it from his truck after replacing his original, and had only about 400 miles on it - he said it was putting out low PSI, so he put on another new one, and sent me the one that is now operating PERFECTLY on my truck - the PSI is exactly the same as my original until the day it started acting up - unfortunately, at the time, I wasn't alert enough to simply unplug and replug the connector - mighta saved myself a lot of unnecessary work...



OH well, at least now I know how to swap out a LP... ;)
 
Electrical....could be!

So..... since your a HAM radio operator..... you went after the electrical angle. Good catch Gary... you might be on to something.

Kinda like a weathered ol PL 232 connection at the antenna. It just needs to be taken apart once in awhile and cleaned up. Maybe some conductive grease on the contacts and it's good for another year... right.

I haven't had any problems with mine yet... but I'll keep that in mind before I toss it.



Mike... KJ7GI
 
That's OK - I'm an "equal opportunity" blamer - and we've been told these SAME LP failures ARE occurring in other Cummins 24 valve applications - I'm not surprised... ;) :)
 
I even carry a lift pump and jumper harness in the back of my 12 valve for those overvalved guys who need a hand in the middle of nowhere.



Bob
 
Might be DUMB luck, but I put a fuel pressure regulator on my lp. The primary reason was to keep the check valve seated (from KJ6Q's mechanical observations of "failed lp's", but my pump never sees a head pressure > 12psi. The "sop ear check for the difference in pitch between the non regulated and the regulated gave me the impression the lp is unler less stress". Maybe because it never has to fight high head pressure because there is always a way out for the excess fuel back to the tank, and yet provide no less than 10psi to the VP under WOT.



With less amperage needed to turn at lower psi, maybe there are other benefits as well?



Maybe dumb luck, maybe ??????, but so far (28k) things are doing well, another 300,000 will tell, lol.



Bob Weis
 
OR, maybe the poor electrical contact in your plug has reduced current so low that poor 'ol LP can't GET above 12 PSI... ;)



Just kidding... . I think... :)
 
Gary - KJ6Q



What did you find out with the bypass around the 4600 pusher?

What kind of electrical hookup do you have for the pusher? I noticed a toggle sw. on your dash. Does this have anything to do with your pusher?



Looks like a good installation. Do you think the small filter is sufficient. I want to do about what you did except I have a Racor Filter if it will fit the location.
 
The toggle switch controls the fuel transfer pump from my in-bed tank to the main tank,



The filter ahead of the pusher does seem small, but probably provides enough filtering to protect the pusher pump - which is it's main function, and probably also flows more than the element in the Cummins primary filter. Haven't yet noticed any reduction in fuel flow or PSI at the VP-44, or had to change the filter since originally installed over a year ago.



For the time being, I have given up on a regulator - current PSI in my system seems to be quite satisfactory, no real need to over design what is working fine. The bypass valve I made for my pusher reduces max PSI to the VP-44 by about 3 PSI in normal operation, down to an acceptable 22 psi or so at idle, 20 PSI down the road, and 15 PSI under full load - yet still allows 15 PSI flow at idle if the pusher fails or is shut down - it also quiets the pusher noticeably, probably because of the reduced head pressure.



My electrical control circuit for my pusher consists of control voltage being picked off the 12 volt line to the stock LP - which controls a 20 amp Radio Shack relay that permits 12 volts power flow from a separate keyed line to the added Carter 4601 back near the fuel tank.
 
I can only speak to my experience - but in my case I don't think this is the problem at all. I went through 4 lift pumps between 28,000 and 60,000 miles. At 60,000 miles I added a 7 psi pusher pump in addition to the factory pump and at 140,000 miles they are still working as good as when they were installed and I haven't touched them at all. No difference in how I've operated the truck, where it's operated, etc. So unless I was extremely unlucky 4 times and lucky this once this wasn't the problem in my case.
 
I agree w/ Gary's theory, as the connector & possibly the wires to the LP are undersized for how hard that pump has to work. It needs full, unrestricted power for long life.



If there is power loss in the harness, then the current draw will go up to comphensate for the volt drop. That means extra wear on the motor.



There is also metal shavings showing up in some fuel filters upon LP failures, which indicate, mechanical failure as well.



It looks like several people had to remove & clean the fuel pickup tube/screen from the tank to remove algae & gunk that is plugging them. Thats gotta be taking out LP's as well, as they cavitate trying to pull fuel through a "plugged straw".



It looks like a person really needs to pull the pickup assy out of the tank, & add a better pickup tube, that wont plug up, add a good pusher back by the tank, and use 3/8 min lines all the way to either a LP by the VP44, or direct to it.



But the pumps need full voltage/power at their brushes to last, or they are dust.
 
Gary - KJ6Q,

Since you have a 20A relay to feed your pusher pump, with the control coming from the LP wire, do you think there would be any advantage installing another 20A relay to feed the original LP and once again picking the control voltage for the relay from the original LP wire and sort of adapting the connector for a heavier gauge wire directly from the battery? . . is it possible to do?
 
It's a thought - the relay has an unused set of contacts - but really, I think the stock wire size itself is probably OK - it's the cheap and wimpy connector I question... I'd love to take one apart to get a good close look at it - they are a real problem to properly clean inside, only 2 small holes the matching pins on the LP enter for contact - can't really SEE what effect attempted cleaning has, just hafta do a "Hail Mary" and hope for the best... :rolleyes:
 
All,



I've thought along the same lines as Gary for a while. A while back someone posted saying he'd gone through a few pumps and everytime he plugged the new one in, his pressure was back up. Then, he decided to install and plug in an old pump and he got good pressure readings.



I bought some dielectric grease and want to clean up my connection, I've never had a failure, just got gauges last week and I notice I have some flux but nothing below 6 pounds.



When I get to the connection plug on the lift pump, is there a trick to getting it off? Do you just pull it off, or do you have to squeeze one of those safety release things.



Hate to sound so simple... but I've never had to do this before.



Thanks in advance for your help,



Dan
 
There's a plug release gadget - a little tricky to figure out, and harder to describe - look at some of the similar more visible plugs - maybe that will help - but no, it does not simply pull out...
 
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