Lucas vs Bully Dog

[dpuckett]

Ok, I have seen this subject approached several times, but never a full all out discussion about the pros and cons. I am looking for EGT/boost differences, as well as MPG, and cooldown time changes.



Since I cant for some reason list everything inthe same post, I will list two replies, listing pros and cons of each one.



I am looking for a good gain in hp and torque, and at the same time, extend the life of everything involved. The truck will be used primarily for towing 6-7 tons of hay cross country, so EGT and MPG are big factors. ANy help is greatly appreciated. I am genuinely on the fence, and would try both, since I have two CTD Rams, but dont have that much money yet.



Daniel

 

[dpuckett]

Lucas-



Pro-

1)proven performance gain, especially in intercooled trucks.

2) Many TDR vendors stock and sell them, one in particular having a really good price on them right now.

3) Increase power without compromising pump longevity or reliability

Con-

1) Have read reports of increased smoke, EGT, and even smoke at idle. Some of you see smoke as good, I see it as wasted fuel (money) and something for the greenies to further bash us about. Granted, a little smoke under hard acceleration is livable.

2) 4 holes per tip make for less than ideal fuel atomization and distribution, leading to the smoke issue. Correct me if I am wrong on the number of holes.

 

[dpuckett]

BULLY DOG

Pro-

1) Extrude honed tips. Supposedly (though it has yet in my mind to be proven or disproven) you get a substantial gain in both MPG and Power/torque. Not an unreasonable claim, though. I like the idea of a cleaner and finer spry pattern. Less smoke.

2) Balancing for flow and pop pressure. THis also needed to be mentioned for the Lucas ( at least the ones from PDR). Once again, less smoke, and smoother operation.

3) See lots of Bully Dog stuff in 2nd Gen signatures. Apparently a lot of happy campers out there. ( and haulers and everyday drivers)

Con-

1) Not much on the forums about these, at least that I could find. What are you guys running them in, and what use?

2) This is touchy, so dont take me wrong here. I have had trouble getting more detailed information from them about the injectors, though I have yet to call them so far. It seems the emails I have sent, though, have just been rewordings of the literature and what is on their site. If I am going to spend moeny on something, I want to know what I am getting. I have been taken in the past, and would like to avoid repeating that if at all possible. Price is an issue, but so is service before and after the sale.



THat said, I have a question for you Lucas guys. Can you get them to not smoke? By that I mean, under average acceleration- not going 20-75 on a 1/8 mi Colo on ramp to I25- and cruise? I also am a little leery of the smoke at idle; any remedy for that? How many of you have had no smoke at all? THe pump was just rebuilt by Bootheel Diesel INjection Service in Sikeston MO 5K miles ago. They are a Bosch certified shop, and I have been happy with them thus far.



Daniel

 

[DPKetchum]

Try talking to Doug at -- email address removed --,Advanced diesel tech. I got a great buy on injectors that when they arrived they had been shipped from Bully Dog tech. Doug was really helpful and took the time to explain lots of in and outs about setup and injectors etc. I paid 285. 00 with no core.

 

[formula]

Daniel,

I don't have any experience with the BullyDog injectors, so I can't comment on them. However, I do have the PODs When the engine is fully warmed up I get very little acceleration smoke and NO smoke while cruising on the highway at 70. If I put my foot in it, then I get smoke. The timing advance definitely helped the overall smoke and eliminated the idle smoke. I do have the AFC tuned for low end throttle response, so if I floor it off the line it'll make a nice black cloud until the turbo spools. The PODs also seem to perform much better at higher rpms and boost levels (2000+ rpm and 20+ psi) Just my observations. Hope this helps.



Cheers,

Sean

 

[J DeMaio]

Guys:



I ordered a set of ADT injectors and they arrived yesterday. I'm installing them tomorrow. I'll let you know how they turn out. Currently my pyrometer(pre-turbo) is at about 850* max and my boost is at 20#. I hope to see a gain by installing the injectors and no pump tweaks yet.



DPKetchum, i sent you a private message about these injectors but never got a response Tell me how you feel about these jewels and are you happy with them?



Thanks,



John

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Part of the smoke issue with the POD's is there is a slight spray angle difference. As our engines have the injector 'firing' the fuel cloud at an angle to the piston bowl, the result is a bit (very little bit) of "overspray" across the top of the piston. Secondly, being "large sac" injectors they hold some fuel in the nozzle tip... .

This fuel can be a bit "coarse" at the tail end of the injection cycle.

These issues can be well addressed by A) thin washer allowing nozzle tip closer to piston bowl. and B) timing advancement to around 15-15. 5* advance. and C) pump tuning.

Since you're not going for a 1/4 race machine you should be able to make significant improvements to any smoke.

Anything that increases fueling will cause higher EGT's (assuming no changes to turbo's etc) that is a fact of life. ( it doesn't matter who's injectors you use... more fuel=higher EGT's.

Remember, all of this can be "moderated" by tweaking the pump settings, and choosing the correct RPM/gear.



As for the Bully Dogs, I do not have personal experience with them. I have not heard anyone "trash talking" them. What I have

heard is that they are Bosch injectors (185's ??) that are extrude honed. How much or how far I do not know.



The Lucas injectors are richer than a stock 370 injector... (assuming both are stock/untouched).

One last item to consider... what are the pop-off pressures of the Bully Dog's?? For a given hole size/number, the higher pressure will usually atomize your fuel better and make it easier to burn fully.



. . taken from the book... . "injectors for dummies"... . which I have yet to write. . or find...



bob.

 

[dpuckett]

THanks guys. This is just what I was looking for. I am going to swap iinjectors from my 92 FOR NOW, since I am towing, and the 92 has newly redone stock injectors. Loaded the truck today with a light load of 150 bales, and it seemed to go fine, though I am running blind (part of the reason for the lighter load) without my guages. Plan to leave tomorrow. Weather is supposed to be good. I do plan to get a PDR HX35 when I get the money, then probably get the injectors after that. I figure get the air flow first, then fuel it to match. Our H1Cs seem to be less than ideal when compared to some others for towing, especially with pumped up fueling. BushWakr- I realize that fuel makes heat, but I just didnt want to get too much too soon. I didnt mean to talk bad about Bully Dog, either; they probably get a hundred similar emails a day. Probably call them when the time comes. Still not convinced either way, but I feel better knowing the PODs are an option for towing. ANd I have some time to mull it over and think about it.



Daniel

 

[RGT]

I am waiting to see how John DeMaio(?) makes out with his BullyDog install, but have some related questions/thoughts. The prev. Owner of this truck has bumped up the timing 1/8" by the marks, I can see about 1/8" inch of clean threads on the high idle adjustment(defueling point at high rpm?) and the don't know what else, I don't know P. O. as I bought of a dealer lot. Still have the 18. 5 turbo housing, and stock exhaust,which is currently in need of replacing and will be soon with a 3. 5 or 4" system, havent quite figured out which yet. The truck is very quick and pulls pretty hard through75mph It seems to flatten out after that, and I don't go there much. I get very little smoke, mostly a grey haze for short time if I get into it hard around 35, seems to be gone by 40... . my reason for wanting to upgrade injectors would be for improved pump life, which I understand is compromised when the pump is turned up with stock injectors? If bigger injectors, I am leaning toward the Bully Dogs, or maybe just stock 185's, would get the fuel charge in a little quicker, taking the strain off the pump, it stands to reason I might pick up a little better performance, economy, and lower exhuast temps as the fuel would have more time to burn... . I plan on putting on a 12 or 14cm w. g. exhaust housing at some later point, the truck will be used for plowing.

 

[J DeMaio]

Okay guys Yesterday, I began the great job. I soaked the injectors with penetrating oil for three days and built a homemade injector puller. Saturday morning I started pulling the injectors and they popped out easily. The new ones slid right in and this was probably a three hour job. Once in, I noticed a lot more low end power, no more smoke, increase of 4 pounds of boost, and a maximum temperature increase of 100*. This is with no pump mods, just dropping in the injectors. I was very happy with the job and am satisfied with how the truck runs for just doing this. Next will be pump tweaks!

 

[dpuckett]

update

Finally called Bully Dog today. Talked to someone very courteous and knowledgeable (I HAVE to start writing down names). Anyway, I was treated very well, and they seemed interested in answering my questions. Found out they are NOT extrude honed, they are NEW injectors of a marine application. Didnt get around to pop pressures, or hole numbers, but was told to expect 40 hp, and less smoke than stock. So... ... I need to take back my comments about them being hard to get ahold of. Just pick up the phone.



THeir cat back exhaust system is from the end of the down pipe out to the rear, 4" the whole way. Good price too, in my opinion.



Daniel

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

Just to clarify something a couple posts back (if I read it right)

Putting in larger injectors does NOT "get fuel in quicker", it actaully puts more fuel in, but later... .

Basically due to higher pop-off pressure, the fuel mixture is held back until later in the piston stroke. Also, when you put in these 'new' injectors, you should re-time your pump, which will compensate for the later injection. Commonly the timing is set to around 15 degrees advance. Some run as high as 17 degrees but that starts to get hard on head gaskets...

One other thing relating to pump life...

I recal Joe D. telling me/us once that if the pump adjustments are sufficient to make a noticeable difference in idle speed then you are starting to impact pump life. Now, exactly what "noticeable difference" is, could be open to interpretation, I take it to mean that you have a couple hundred RPM jump, but that's just MY interpretation.



If I misread that post, I apologize in advance...



Bob.

 

[RGT]

No, bushwacker, you read that right. I was under the impression that that was so, thanks for clearing that up for me. I thought that was why putting larger injectors in helped reduce the load on the pump after cranking up the fueling..... My idle is a little high and the previous Owner had advanced the timing and made some adjustments to the pump, the truck goes great I'll have to start working backwards through the adjustments when the weather gets warm to see where I stand, I also need to get a tach so that it's not just my thinking the idle is too high... Thank you for clearing that up for me.

 

[dpuckett]

RGT,



When I advanced my timing, it sounded like my idle increased just a hair. I have my Full power screw in 1 turn from stock, and that is enough for the old clutch and transmission. Not sure about the idle speed, but I had to turn it down a bit after turning up the pump. I still doubt I hit 900 rpm before redoign the idle speed.



AND... . for timing- I got to the bottom bolt with a 1/2 inch crows foot and an extension. A bit of a pain, but at least I didnt burn myself modifying a wrench.



Daniel