Madison, WI - 'Metro' buses = barking turbos

[HoleshotHolset]

If you stand along any street in Madison - you'll eventually see a 'Metro' bus.



And you'll quickly realize that a lot of them have exhaust brakes =



What bothers me is that the Allison trannies in these things are short shifting something fierce..... they're shifting such that the turbo barks when the auto transmission shifts!



Anyone work for the Metro? I'd like to know how many turbos you all are eating... if any...



Matt

 

[Jff24Gordn]

Well, put it this way. Last summer at thr TDR Nationals, A few of us got to go on the fun tour of thr test facility. In there they had alot of toys and broken parts. In the turbo room, the had a PILE of broken HX40s that came out of busses.

 

[JohnE]

Matt;



Do you recall what brand bus? Look for orange wings.

My company has supplied many buses to Madison. All have Cummins C series diesels with retarding transmissions. I think they are Allison B400 but will have to check the records. NO exhaust brake. A retarding transmission is a very serious driveline brake capable of 1300 ft-lbs.



The only time I've noticed turbo bark is from Detroit Diesel Series 50 EGR II engines. The turbo drive pressure is very high to power the EGR. I had to write a white paper describing the phenomena. The official term is charge air reverse flow, but I did say the colloquial (bombing) term is "barking or huffing the turbo". DD has since reduce drive pressure based on these observations.



Drop me an email or PM



-John

 

[PLaFrombois]

Matt



I don't know what the buses have, but combine over paid/under trained drivers=job security for city mechanics.



Paul

 

[HoleshotHolset]

The buses really do sound like they have exhaust brakes... . could have fooled me... . I didn't catch the manufacturer - they have advertisements plastered all over them.....



They bark those turbos on EVERY shift... . from the sounds of it - they're eating turbos left and right as a result.



Matt

 

[csevers]

If that is the case

I have an idea, maybe I should swing by there with a B-1 or equal and interduce them to modifieds turbos? Once the first one lasts for a long time I could sell them some more, of coarse with a big mark up. (just to get some more $$ for mods myself)



Craig

How many buses do you think they have??$$$???$$$

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I don't know how many buses they have - but they do have some cool financial metrics that I found here.





"The financial analysis also took into account the ongoing capital and operating costs and revenues associated with the existing Madison Metro bus system. In an average year, approximately $5 million is invested in the Madison Metro system for bus replacement, other equipment, and facilities. Capital funding for these expenses comes from Federal grants and local matching revenues, including debt. In 2000, operating and maintenance expenses approached $33 million (including approximately $4. 5 million for paratransit). "



I would say that they could afford a few B1's... . and maybe a camplate or two... .



Matt

 

[A Johnson]

I took care of warranty on around 200 buses with ISC and Voith 863. 3 trannies. Yes, they have turbo issues, it was explained to me as compressor wheel tip fatigue. Do to the excellent low end performance, the tip of the wheel bends back and forth like bending a piece of wire until it breaks, the wheel then becomes unbalanced and very bad things happen. I personally have changed so many I can't count that high. Have not seen it on the ISL yet but only have 50-60K on these engines, so will wait and see.



Word is they are getting it under control and there is probably an updated turbo out by now, but after 100K I no longer do warranty on maintenence items so I haven't personally seen it yet. I think it was a changed from cast to machined compressor wheel.



The stop light acceleration on these is pretty amazing, the hybrids with the ISL and Allison drives are even better.



A Johnson

 

[JohnE]

A Johnson

You work for CNW or Tri-Met?



ISC and ISL where running the same turbo



Yes the hybrid is a peppy driver. Allison has upped the power in the later models, too. I wish they could up the exhaust brake action for the 30+ mph speeds.

We're getting ready to do a gasoline-electric hybrid for Californai markets. Not as peppy as the Allison, but still moves the coach pretty good.

 

[A Johnson]

CNW. 16yrs



I assume you work for New Flyer, only person I know with Flyer is Dan Belden, good guy to work with. I really appreciate the Flyer engine/transmission access in comparison to Gillig so if you have anything to do with that part of it, THANKS?



A Johnson

 

[JohnE]

New Flyer is the place. Dan is our NW Customer Service person. I've only met him once. He doesn't come here very often. Most of our Customer Service people are very good.



I think you figured out why I can get answers from Cummins. We also have one of the last Cummins/Thermo King branches in the country. I took our resident Cummins/thermo King tech and (previous) Cummins OEM Engineer for a ride in my truck when it was still pretty mild. Their eyes popped when I past redline and hit 3,500 rpm on the tachometer.

I'm a Manufacturing Engineer in the final assembly plant in Crookston. Only partially responsible for the engine compartment. We do constantly tweak the hard and soft plumbing to clean it up behind the three doors (radiator, engine, & battery).



Have you seen the new 863. 4 (4 speed) Voith trany? Big, VERY big, but it sure is much improved over the the old 3 speed. The nasty external filter and braided steel line is all internal now. The last 150 coaches to Tri-Met have the new 4 speed. Tony, Jennifer, & Jim are the usual inspectors from Tri-Met.



Does the Gillig get crowded by using the low mount turbo instead of the high mount?



Back to Madison. I forgot to check the spec sheet to see which transmission they run. I still think Allison and Milwaukee is the only WI property running Voith. The Allison transmission goes to 1/3 retard with 0 TPS. I've NEVER noticed a bark off the turbo except for the Series 50 EGR engines. We beat the engines pretty hard in road testing, too. Every engine trany package gets a FULL stall test.



The sound from a Cummins bus engine is really different than a Cummins in a Dodge. The radiator fan is hydraulic powered and makes a lot of noise. The transmission retarder is controlled by an air activated piston. The duty cycle on the air compressor is very high. The compressor governor pops off a lot and being mounted on the dryer unit is isn't masked by engine noise.



After the CAPS fiasco was cleaned up, the turbo issue was mostly gone, too.



-John

 

[A Johnson]

I am also the Voith technician as our Distributorship is a Voith Service Provider, so yes I have seen the 864. 3E. (I prefer the old 3 speed) kind of short driveline on the 4speeds.



I know Tony, Jennifer and Jim very well, and see Jim almost on a daily basis.



Gillig;

I wouldn't say the turbo is really the problem, as much as the way the frame rails are tight against the engine, and the access holes under the rear seat and over the top of the transmission are only 1/2 the size of a Flyer.



CAPS is cleaned up , now we are muching ECMs' on a weekly basis, some of the latest buses with ISL have under 20k miles and have had 3 and 4 ECMs' each. I have to do a report to the factory for each failed ECM, I guess we finally got someones attention at the factory, as an engineer is coming out Monday and I get to take him out to Tri-Met for show and tell.



A Johnson



P. S. I replied to your PM but for some reason I can't track it , so hope you recieved it.

 

[JohnE]

Yep, I got it thanks.



Darius is also our Voith guy besides TheroKing, & Cummins. Yes 864. 3 is the 4 speed. My fingers get behind my brain when typing. Yeah there are drawbacks to the 4 speed, but the power band is much better. Did Tracy come out here and use those test ports we mounted on all the Tri-Met coaches. I think we got most of the kinks worked out on that driveline, too.



Ask Jim about burying a bus in a mud hole.



The duty cycle of a bus is probably the most severe. The shops with a good PM program get by with very little troubles.



King County is getting C-9 in their new 60' hybrid coaches and 40' conventional coaches next year. They are really under the emissions gun



You ever work on the C8. 3G & C8. 3G+ engines?



-John

 

[A Johnson]

I have not worked on any of the gas engines yet. We have a few in our territory, we have two mechanics one in Portland and at least one in Renton that do all the gas work. They don't seem very busy with it so I'm not sure if it's a good product or if there are only a few around.



Who is your Cummins OEM Engineer? Is it Dan Fedawa (SP)?



A Johnson

 

[JohnE]

It was Dan Streutker, before he moved on to marine systems. I don't remember the current guy's name now.

Martha Hettinger is the group lead engineer.



The biggest problem with the gas versions is plug & coil life. Pierce Transit (Tacoma) has a bunch of gassers and is getting more this spring. I did learn a trick on the gassers, regap the plugs every 2,500 miles and they not only run much better, but save on burning out a coil.



The HPCR ISL-03 is almost as quiet as a gasser. Very impressive especially when a DD Series 50 is chugging in the next bus.

 

[A Johnson]

The way I understand it Tri-Met won't be getting any more new buses until "05", have you sent any ISL with HPCR out to other northwest locations?



A Johnson

 

[Will24]

I grew up around buses and now I hope I never have to work on them... My dad worked for Neoplan for somwhere around 10 years





-Will

 

[JohnE]

Not yet. All the HPCR ISL powered coaches have gone to MN & WI.



Bus manfacturers are pretty volatile in the market cycles.

Normally employment on the transit operations side is pretty stable, but with any governement operations they do get fat and periodically have to lean out.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

"The transmission retarder is controlled by an air activated piston."

Ahhhh... . OK... . that would explain why the transmission retarders sound like exhaust brakes.



Sweet - thanks for the info!



The turbos are still barking, though... . not sure if they're on the Detroits or Cummins... .



Matt