Competition Manual beats an auto

[JasonCzerak]

Jason wanna go racing? there is a 1/8 mile track 1 hr west of the citys $35 for all you can run in 2 1/2 hrs. race any and everything. i lined up with a sportsman 500 one night. this friday they have a night race. more infor at www.grovecreek.com





The Fat Kid

Andy

Do I know you from University area? I typicaly hang with Paul and his maroon 2500 short box. I have the Blue long box.



Anyways. I talked to Paul just now and we may pay a visit to the track. I don't think I'll be doing any racing until I get that SBC in there. Maybe some granny shifting and rolling starts. But what good is that for an 1/8mile ya know?

 

[Green Machine]

Im tying hard to get into the 14's with my 42? hp 5 speed. Im running 3. 5 gears with 285 tires and the problem I have is its reved out in 4th about 200 feet befor the finish line. If I shift into 5th I loose time and speed. If I stay in 4th its peged at 3600.

I have always ran in 4hi all the way down the track maby I will try shifting out of 4hi mid track or so. Any sugestions? Im also going to hit it at 5psi off the line and work my way up untill the south bend ofe goes up in smoke. (I can not powershift it just spinns the clutch)

Thanks

Ron R.

 

[Turbo Thom]

Ron... ... ... What gear do you leave in. I left at 20 lbs of boost in second gear and never got close to "red line". Then I have the 3. 55 rear gear. 4th gear wound tight, I'm at the lights, but I still shifted to fifth. At least I tried to. Mine will not go into fifth in a hurry.



. . Preston. .

 

[JoshPeters]

OK OK OK... . Fact... . an automatic changes gears so fast that it is almost seamless. Our transmission as a matter of fact... . the only "neutral" spot is the 2-3 shift. Other than that... . it's apply the next gear. Personally..... if you think you can outshift an automatic I will laugh at you. I know some people are Dang good at slamming a manual. BUT if a manual is SO great why arent' the top fuel guys running them (I know I know, Lenco) Why isn't Scott Bentz or (gulp) Comp, or the Scheid rail running one? They can't shift fast enough. They can't shift consistant enough. With an auto... there is no... . "Well... I... . uhh... . Missed a shift. "



Josh

 

[JasonCzerak]

OK OK OK... . Fact... . an automatic changes gears so fast that it is almost seamless. Our transmission as a matter of fact... . the only "neutral" spot is the 2-3 shift. Other than that... . it's apply the next gear. Personally..... if you think you can outshift an automatic I will laugh at you. I know some people are Dang good at slamming a manual. BUT if a manual is SO great why arent' the top fuel guys running them (I know I know, Lenco) Why isn't Scott Bentz or (gulp) Comp, or the Scheid rail running one? They can't shift fast enough. They can't shift consistant enough. With an auto... there is no... . "Well... I... . uhh... . Missed a shift. "



Josh

Rally, top fuel, F1, ect, are infact geared, manual gear boxes WITH A CLUTCH. that are electronicly shifted. OR, the gears in the trans are setup in such a way that slamming the next gear at WOT doesn't require clutching, or both.



Now we talked about 500rear wheel HP in an auto and manual, the auto wins. Well I bet power at the fly wheel is greater with the auto. The auto lose what? 20? 25% power in that slush box while a geared transmission loose 10? 15%? I have never met and auto with a stick in the "same car/truck" where t he auto won a race. You need to talk APPLES TO APPLES here. . and that is to have the same FLYWHEEL HP.



If the automatic was better, you would think the z06 vette would be an auto? or to keep things in the dodge world, the Viper? What about a BMW M3? Infact, the pressure plate in a 2004 M3 is heavier then our trucks. chew on that for a bit.



Shifting these trucks with such a long throw is difficult and if you miss a shift, y ou are an idiot. the time differnet between ****s is . 050-ish and the power lose of an auto vs a manual makes up for that granted same flywheel HP



As for the miss shift, Yes, I have seen a dodge automagic trans "give up" mid track on a shift. The driver regained the trans, hit the spray and still ran a 12. 3 in his 408 supercharged Dakota R/T. But the auto messed up a possible11. 3 run. Next year, expect this Michgan based truck to run high 9's, different built trans. It's a goofy automagic, as for details, I don't know.

 

[TurboTweaker]

jason i will be out at the track tomarrow night. gates open at 7pm. silver QC SB. 376 is my number. i am one of the few diesles that run there(a ferd and thats it). PLEASE COME PLAY! its a blast.



The Fat Kid

Andy

 

[SpicyJam]

Here is the bottom line in my opinion. We have 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. Built to haul whatever, in no way did DC design our trucks to go down the 1/4 mile track. Josh, I would take you up on the offer of shifting against an auto, "if" the truck had a manual such as Vett, or even some of the older "cars" had, I could get ya... ... ... ..... then I would be laughing... ... ... lol. Point is they are cars, gassers... ... ... ... . not TRUCKS.

Top fuelers using auto's, better look again, and Sheid, well that looked like a Lenco to me... ... ..... has a clutch so it is manual... ... ... . hmmmmmm. Sorry J/P, just from a old 4 spd driver at the track I was very good, but again that was a car. Later Jim.

 

[JoshPeters]

I agree that manuals are can be slammed very close. An F1 box is a sequential box like a Motorcycle. That is not a true gear box, it's more like a Lenco. A lenco is a series of Planetary gearsets, once you are off the line you don't touch the clutch. Sorry but That's not the "manual" we are trying to discuss.

Jim, I've seen you shift... . I feel sorry for the trans and shift mechanisms. The problem is consistansy. Fact is NO one can shift within . 02 like an Auto, every time every day.



Jason, I don't know what your buddy had with that RT, sounds fishy to me. He probably was manually shifting his auto and bumped it into neutral.

How about Mercedes-Benz? They dont' run many manual boxes. The reason those "sports cars" run manual boxes is for better control when cornering, and racing on a track. Not for 1/4 mile times. Why do you think that Road and Track, Motor Trend, and all the others can take an M3 and get almost a second difference between their numbers? Different Drivers on a Manual gearbox. Take an SL600AMG Mercedes-Benz... .compair the numbers across all the mags. Aside from track differences, they are within . 3 of eachother.



The rule of thumb is 20%loss through the driveline Auto OR Manual. Why don't you give Amianthus a PM... ... . He had a Manual, then went to an Auto. Ask him how much faster his truck is with an Auto... BECAUSE of the manual.



If a Manual is better... . Get ahold of Jeff Prince in Texas, ask him why he switched.



I knew my post would get people wound up..... Manuals have their place. The old muscle cars didn't have very good converters, no lock-up, and the manuals were far better. In Todays world... . The auto has better converters with MUCH less loss, can shift faster, hold the power and they can Lock up just like a Clutch!



Josh

 

[SpicyJam]

Josh, It's a truck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It makes all the sense in the world to have an auto in them for 1/4 mile racing. The 5spd or 6spd manual in a truck will be just that, a "truck manual tranmission". Just remember your auto was not designed from the factory to race either... ... ... ... what we have in DC's eyes are heavy work horses. All I can do is buy a clutch, how many parts have you bought to keep your transmission together for the power and torque you have? I may shift like a mother, but, knock on wood", I am still together.

 

[Green Machine]

Ron... ... ... What gear do you leave in. I left at 20 lbs of boost in second gear and never got close to "red line". Then I have the 3. 55 rear gear. 4th gear wound tight, I'm at the lights, but I still shifted to fifth. At least I tried to. Mine will not go into fifth in a hurry.



. . Preston. .

I take off in 4hi 2nd gear. I have 3. 55 with an open diff and 285 tires with a 5 speed. I take off with about 5 psi of boost. More than that and two tires go up in smoke (one in the front one in the rear). My best run is 15. 000 at 93mph in 4th gear. If i shift to 5th I drop down to 15. 40 at 88mph. I tried a 3rd gear launch but the South bend will not take it. This time out I striped the truck. Last time I was running with a full size spare/tail gate/full tank of fuel/passengers. Wonder if it will help at all?

Later Preston

Ron R.



ps im running Dragonflow injectors a stock hx35/12 and a drag comp.

 

[hemijustin]

Has anyone tryed runing the 1/4 with some kind of overdrive befor the transfer case... seemes like that would be the way to go... i had a gearvindors overdrive and that thing was an almost instant shift. . as fast as i could hit the clutch half way down and release. seems like you could lanch in 4th hit the overdrive then shift to 5th over ( my 4th over was the same as 5th) and have a good run... only problem with a gearvindors is u cant use it in 4x4... there suposed to be rated for some high hp... but then i did break mine with only low 300s . the guy at GV said its most common for stick shift dodges to break em...

justin

 

[Partyat33]

How do you make 20lbs of boost at lauch with a manual ? I just took out my six speed and put in an auto. I am hoping for a two second improvement. I was not willing to slam shift my six speed so I hope the auto kicks butt.



Dennis

 

[JasonCzerak]

Here is the bottom line in my opinion. We have 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. Built to haul whatever, in no way did DC design our trucks to go down the 1/4 mile track. Josh, I would take you up on the offer of shifting against an auto, "if" the truck had a manual such as Vett, or even some of the older "cars" had, I could get ya... ... ... ..... then I would be laughing... ... ... lol. ... .....

Some company some place makes a short throw for our manual trans... ;-) Something i'll be getting. Might not be the best for winter time driving since these transmissions don't like cold at all.

 

[JasonCzerak]

Josh, It's a truck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It makes all the sense in the world to have an auto in them for 1/4 mile racing. The 5spd or 6spd manual in a truck will be just that, a "truck manual tranmission". Just remember your auto was not designed from the factory to race either... ... ... ... what we have in DC's eyes are heavy work horses. All I can do is buy a clutch, how many parts have you bought to keep your transmission together for the power and torque you have? I may shift like a mother, but, knock on wood", I am still together.

IF I did on a daily basis, sure, I would break the truck trans. But it's a truck trans, it will last longer then and DSM trans in your average talon/exclipes when power shifting.



Anything will break. it's a freaking mechanical device we are all pushing over the edge and back.

 

[JasonCzerak]

How do you make 20lbs of boost at lauch with a manual ? I just took out my six speed ahttp://turbodieselregister.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1270171nd put in an auto. I am hoping for a two second improvement. I was not willing to slam shift my six speed so I hope the auto kicks butt.



Dennis

You don't.



4x4 launch with a posi rear, you can use the momentium of the motor at 2500rpm with a 2nd gear launch to spin 3 of 4 tires and get moving while the motor starts to create boost. 2nd gear is still rather low enough that you'll never make enough boost to be productive and by that time, you'll be shifting. so use RPM to get your moving 3rd and up makes power. This is hard on the clutch. BTW



I'll have to look for my slips when I ran my truck the first time and see what the 60 foot time was for my 16. 5 run (100% stock).



As per my previous example about the Audi TT 225 AWD. Same principle for a 1/4 mile launch with a turbo motor with a manual trans. not to mention the torque at idle/no boost of a 1. 8 liter 4 cylinder motor doesn't help.



What I did with the TT was pules the motor and keep the RPM's around 5000, keep hitting the throttle WOT, off, WOT, off, WOT, off. Keep doing this while you are staged waiting for the other guy to stage. Staging first in this case is an advantage to you. This attempts to load the motor, create heat and get the turbo moving as much as possible with out a real load. The trick is to hit WOT just as the last amber light is on and drop that clutch at +5000rpm. Spin 4 Z ratated tires and boost comes REAL quick. Grab 2nd as fast as possible to not loose boost, and your off.



I ran a 14. 1 at 99mph with a 1. 6 60-foot. This is a 100% stock 225hp 3400pound convertable.



You have to use simular process with a 4x4 truck to get some bad as launces. But again, hard on the clutch and drive train.



As for my truck, I was able to break lose (not smoke) 3 of 4 tires rather easy with a 2500rpm idle. The slight differnece between an AWD 4 cylinder and a 4x4 diesel I suppose.





Josh, Car and Driver and the like haven't a HUGE clue how to drive an manual. Expecially an AWD cad to boot! I seen times as high as 15. 5 for the TT described above I have even see articles where the 450hp AWD twinturbo 911 was SLOWER IN THE 0-60 then a 400hp z06 vette. How is that possible? I think someone with the 911 turbo le the clutch out, hit the gas, waited for turbo, have a nice day.



Also, I seen articles where they compare a 3500 dodge cumins' 6 speed to a 5 speed automatic 6. 0 ford f-350. They put the ford faster in every speed test. Geee, I bet them losers were starting the dodge off in 1st gear (creeper!). morons. the list goes on and on.

 

[SpicyJam]

Some company some place makes a short throw for our manual trans... ;-) Something i'll be getting. Might not be the best for winter time driving since these transmissions don't like cold at all.

I have the short throw in mine, but still the gates are not as close as one would like, but better. Not sure what winter has to do with it, 2 winters now and shifts fine no matter what the temp.

 

[JasonCzerak]

I have the short throw in mine, but still the gates are not as close as one would like, but better. Not sure what winter has to do with it, 2 winters now and shifts fine no matter what the temp.

My truck was just breaking in, maybe 10,000 miles on it as it got cold up here. It never liked to shift without getting all grabby and felt like I was grinding gears. . Double clutching and shifting slowly smoothed things out for the first few morning miles. But as far as normal shifting speed for regular traffic before things got warmed up, not happening.

 

[JL penner]

An NV4500 driven properly and shifted flawlessly would walk all over an auto any day of the week in equally matched trucks (HP & TQ).



Not trying to start a transmission war, this is just my opinion.

 

[JasonCzerak]

An NV4500 driven properly and shifted flawlessly would walk all over an auto any day of the week in equally matched trucks (HP & TQ).



Not trying to start a transmission war, this is just my opinion.

Exactly. And all this BS about "miss a shift". If you complain and use that as an excuse for a "do over" then you are a tool when it comes to competition. If you can't manage a manual trans in a race, you shouldn't be driving a manual. Bottom line you can't account driver error when comparing different transmissions.



The manaul trans will trans have 0% slippages the second the clutch is enguaged. the auto will never have that. bottom line. Even with lock up converters there is still slippage most of the time.



Line locks can help with dead dig boost control BTW.



As for the speed of shifts, yes, drivers are different. I know a guy, big dude, strong dude, he pulled the shifter right out of the trans when he grabbed 2nd in his rust-stang. how's that for speed and torque? heh

 

[hemijustin]

: It’s my opinion that racing with a manual transmission is more of a challenge. Therefore more fun! As for being faster, I don’t know, these autos are getting supped up pretty good. I know it’s a lot easier to take off fast in an auto. But it seems to me the manuals have a lot better top end pull. I’m not saying drag racing with an auto is easy or anything just that its harder with a manual. I believe that a properly driven manual should out perform any Auto in most situations. Because you can make it do what you want it to do

Justin