Competition Manual beats an auto

[JoshPeters]

Very True on both of those Jim..... I didn't say that you HAD to shift..... I just wanted to see you try to shift so quickly that the sled didn't rear-end ya!



I know and understand what you are saying. Just no one seems to see my point. Your example above..... You have at least 40hp on the Fat Kid. He still beat you on a clean run. He had not grabbed OD or Lock-up. You were in 5th and as he said Gaining... . BUT... he wasn't yet locked up. So it's a toss up you both had one more gear. BUT with those are the numbers. You are 40hp more and . 3 slower in the 1/8.



I'd say them are the facts.



Josh

Can we all shake hands and drink a beer now?

 

[hemijustin]

Josh

Can we all shake hands and drink a beer now?

sounds good to me... :-laf

JUSTIN

 

[SpicyJam]

Very True on both of those Jim..... I didn't say that you HAD to shift..... I just wanted to see you try to shift so quickly that the sled didn't rear-end ya!



I know and understand what you are saying. Just no one seems to see my point. Your example above..... You have at least 40hp on the Fat Kid. He still beat you on a clean run. He had not grabbed OD or Lock-up. You were in 5th and as he said Gaining... . BUT... he wasn't yet locked up. So it's a toss up you both had one more gear. BUT with those are the numbers. You are 40hp more and . 3 slower in the 1/8.



I'd say them are the facts.



Josh

Can we all shake hands and drink a beer now?

It was a good run, and all in account I think the out come was good. Lets see now for the excuses... hmmmmmmmmmm lose a 100 pounds gain a 10th, get a short box, lose a couple more 10ths, and run 265 tires instead of 285... ... lol.

Like I said the whole time I was never saying the truck transmission was a good transmission at the 1/4 mile, it just is not designed for it. The Fat Kid runs hard, BTW Fat Kid you wanna race my truck once to see if you get a better time... ..... ?

J/P you busy this weekend?, just may take ya up on the beer deal... . :-laf Later Jim.

 

[JoshPeters]

This weekend I've got to work on saturday... . I might be going to a race on Friday night. Other than that..... I'm not sure. Keep me posted, we'll figure something out!



Josh

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

After drag racing my truck for 6 years (approx 600 passes) and running against a LOT of other trucks I estimate about a second difference between a manual and a built auto (the auto being faster) given everything else the same. That's what we estimated and almost exactly what Eric McBride saw in his truck when he switched from a manual to an auto with no other changes. 1st you can't build boost on the line with a manual like you can with an auto, 2nd you can't shift as fast. These are fairly heavy duty manuals we're talking about here - not ZF 6 speeds!

 

[SpicyJam]

After drag racing my truck for 6 years (approx 600 passes) and running against a LOT of other trucks I estimate about a second difference between a manual and a built auto (the auto being faster) given everything else the same. That's what we estimated and almost exactly what Eric McBride saw in his truck when he switched from a manual to an auto with no other changes. 1st you can't build boost on the line with a manual like you can with an auto, 2nd you can't shift as fast. These are fairly heavy duty manuals we're talking about here - not ZF 6 speeds!

Thank you Steve, I was never saying that is was. Just trying to figure out at what differance the HP could be to beat one. I will be more my than 40, but it is close. If you look back at the time slip the difference could have been at the light. He could have beat me by . 6 seconds had he gotten a great light, or close to a tie if I got the better light, in any stance as for the 8th mile there is no way I can keep up with out someone screwing up, and hoping it is not me... ... ... ... lol. Later Jim.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

The light makes no difference in your ET at all. The clock doesn't start until you leave the line. You could sit there for a second after the green drops and still get the exact same time. This is one of the most commonly misunderstood things at the dragstrip. I was drag racing for a couple years before I understood it.

 

[JL penner]

To me there doesn't seem to be a lot of skill involved in drag racing an auto. All you have to do is build boost at the line, and time your light right? The rest is keep the "go" peddle smashed and the truck straight. Then stop at the end.



The reason most of the successful racers run autos is because of the consistancy and its cheaper to build an auto. If you put a stock auto against a stock manual in my opinion, the manual will win. If you put a built auto agains a stock manual (big surprise) the auto will win. But say you put a "racing" manual in your truck. Say one with a much shorter throw, 3 gears to row through, and a racing clutch. Then put the two trucks up against each other. Who's gonna win? I think think the manual will.



oh yeah and a good driver can shift just as fast as an auto, and in some cases even faster.



come on guys, this is basic physics!

 

[JL penner]

I street raced a 97 power stroke, I was in 2 wheel drive, I revved to 2500 rpm and dropped the clutch, spun my tires and still killed him. This was before I got my Edge EZ and he claims the ford has a chip.

So chalk one up for a slow shiftin truck transmission verses the mighty auto

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Your not taking into consideration the ability to spool on the line - which is a big consideration on an overfueled diesel engine and isn't a consideration at all on a non-turbo'd gas engine (and less of one even on a turbo'd gas engine). You'll never convince me that any driver can shift an NV4500 or an NV5600 as fast as an auto. If so I'd love to see it - sure haven't yet.

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I gave you an example of a truck that a manual was swapped to an auto and dropped a second off his time. Eric at the time was one of the fastest trucks around running 14's with his 5 speed - no changes but the auto and he was a second faster. Same driver, same truck - you can't get a better comparison than that.

 

[SpicyJam]

Steve let me retype this, I know how times work at the track. The times would have been the same, but we could have crossed the line almost side by side, giving reaction time. Or 2 truck lengths if he would have cut a better light. The whole deal is that we were close, we did it and the slip shows the falling off of the times as I shifted.

 

[SpicyJam]

Your not taking into consideration the ability to spool on the line - which is a big consideration on an overfueled diesel engine and isn't a consideration at all on a non-turbo'd gas engine (and less of one even on a turbo'd gas engine). You'll never convince me that any driver can shift an NV4500 or an NV5600 as fast as an auto. If so I'd love to see it - sure haven't yet.

Ain't tha the truth, so I wanna race manuals, you auto boys go play with yourselves... ... ... ... ..... :-{} I like my stick... ... . so does the wife Oo.

 

[TurboTweaker]

some peoples kids i tell you what! what jim said the lil fat truck runs good. not bad for 430hp. and on a college budget! and josh you can be quite now you drive a auto, we get your point



The Fat Kid

Andy

 

[JoshPeters]

oh yeah and a good driver can shift just as fast as an auto, and in some cases even faster.



come on guys, this is basic physics!

Your right it is simple physics. ANY automatic can shift faster than a Manual. If you think other wise you don't understand how an automatic works.



Automatic changing gears. Apply another clutch. You have another gear. Done.



Manual changing gears. Push in clutch, change gears, release clutch.



It is physically IMPOSSIBLE for you to even move the shift lever from one gear to the next as fast as an Automatic shifts. Period. Simple hydraulics. You are talking . 02 seconds for an Automatic to shift. How fast is the fastist Manual trans our side of a Sequential gearbox (lenco style). Even a Manual from a Mustang or Camaro you physically cannot slam the shifter from 2nd to 3rd or even 3rd to 4th THAT fast!



I won't argue Manual trannys in ANY application can be fast. I think an equally equipped engine with the Automatic built to handle it will be faster.



OK, OK, OK... now I'm sure I'm gonna hear the "All I have to do is buy a clutch. " Sure you do... Race it HARD a couple of times. Ask Jeff Prince. He smoked a clutch in half a dozen runs. How expensive are you getting now? 2 or 3 clutches for some good runs? Common... . Good clutches, now your MORE expensive than my auto.



Sorry Andy... . Apparently they don't see my point. It is a physical impossibility to shift a manual as fast as an Auto. (Lenco style trans not included)



Josh

 

[JL penner]

Your not taking into consideration the ability to spool on the line - which is a big consideration on an overfueled diesel engine and isn't a consideration at all on a non-turbo'd gas engine (and less of one even on a turbo'd gas engine). You'll never convince me that any driver can shift an NV4500 or an NV5600 as fast as an auto. If so I'd love to see it - sure haven't yet.

I thought you could build boost with a line lock? Basically the same concept use to build boost with an auto, but just harder to do.

I gave you an example of a truck that a manual was swapped to an auto and dropped a second off his time. Eric at the time was one of the fastest trucks around running 14's with his 5 speed - no changes but the auto and he was a second faster. Same driver, same truck - you can't get a better comparison than that.

He went from a stock manual to a built auto. Of course he's going to improve his times. The NV4500 is hard to shift fast. Put in a built manual and I think it would win.



JL

 

[JoshPeters]

The NV4500 is hard to shift fast. Put in a built manual and I think it would win.



JL

What do you do to make a "built" manual? Change the shift gates, shorten the shift? Ok. . understandable... ... it's still not gonna do it! Rotating mass is the key here. In a Manual trans you have to synchronize the next gear before you grab it. Sure you can "power shift" and not use the clutch, but you still have to speed up/slow down many parts of that transmission!

 

[TJSHOTROD]

You guys who think a manual with a good clutch makes a diffrents are out of your mind. The better the clutch holds the harder they are to shift.

T. J.

 

[SpicyJam]

You guys who think a manual with a good clutch makes a diffrents are out of your mind. The better the clutch holds the harder they are to shift.

T. J.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I thought you could build boost with a line lock? Basically the same concept use to build boost with an auto, but just harder to do.

Good luck trying this. Can it be done? Yeah, but your going to go through clutches like MAD. Plus you'll be creating an incredible amount of heat in the clutch which will likely make it slip when you try to hold the power once you leave the line. Repeat runs will be very difficult as well because you've overheated the clutch.

He went from a stock manual to a built auto. Of course he's going to improve his times. The NV4500 is hard to shift fast. Put in a built manual and I think it would win.



JL

Your not talking about a built manual - you are talking about a completely different transmission and if your talking about a lenco your now talking about a race only vehicle at that point. I assumed we were talking about factory available transmissions (with appropriate mods). On a manual that means a different clutch (cause the stock one ain't gonna hold) and on an auto it means a built transmission. I don't know of any generally available modifications for the NV4500 or NV5600 that are going to make them shift anywhere near the speed of an auto nor enable them to build boost.



Believe me I'd love to say that a manual is faster. I prefer a manual and that's what I have but I don't have any dreams that it makes my truck faster. I've seen both sides and a lot of times and I know my choice of transmission takes away from it's dragstrip performance - but my truck isn't primarily a race vehicle, that's a part time proposition.