Modded CP3 issue or maybe not... hmmm??

[JStieger]

When I installed my Stage 1 CP3 last week and did the first start I was getting some really rough idling or it would just die. I would have to hold it at high idle just to get the truck to run. Finally everything settled down and all was good. At this time I only had a P0237 code = MAP sensor boost low. I just figured this was due to me disconnecting harnesses etc while installing the studs/twins/Walbro etc.



So over the past week everything was running great until this evening. This is what happened.



I started it up (hot start) and it started idling from 500 rpm to 1000 rpm over and over again - all while spewing white smoke. I got the rpm up and everything settled down, but still rolled the white smoke and then eventually cleared up. Then roll to a stop and then the rpm goes up and down again with the white smoke.



I couldn't see what the rail pressure was since my SPA gauge useless backlighting was non-functional so I waited until I pulled into my garage, shut down, and restarted. The truck is idling at 4500 psi then up to 6500 psi and so forth until it settles down. Every so often at constant 5250 psi idel pressure, the rail pressure would ever-so-faintly blip down to 4500 psi then shoot up to 8000 psi and then right back down to 5250 psi. All the while the feed at the CP3 inlet is at constant pressure.



After a few more shut downs and restarts it finally does the constant rpm up and down thing again with the white smoke. Rail pressures are 5250 psi to 8000 psi or so over and over again. My stock idle rail pressure has always been 5250 psi. Good rail pressure should equal normal injection timing. Low rail pressure should equal late injection timing = white smoke. So I pull the codes:



P0237 MAP sensor voltage too low

P0647 AC voltage too high

P02269 WIF condition



P02269 makes sense since I washed the truck last weekend and got water on the WIF plug since it is now disconnected because of the Walbro setup. It's just a resistance type circuit anyway that sets off a light on the dash.



P0237 I actually got this code on the first start after I finished the 3 week project so I cannot say if it is related to this issue. If the MAP is reading low then the truck will not fuel - at least that is my take on it. Hence the rpm going wacky??? I. e. late fueling = late injection timing = white smoke.



P0647 - well I looked on TDR and DTR and saw that one guy got it when his AC wire chaffed and shorted to ground. This in turn affected a pile of other sensors readings connected to this harness in term of 0-5 v readings and generated all types of codes included the MAP and injector codes.



I'm going to pull the MAP and see if it's dirty or something. I do have a spare MAP in my parts stash just in case. I'm also going to try to trace the harness to the AC unit, Maybe I screwed it up when I installed the twins???



I really do not feel like pulling the CP3 and putting the stock one back one only to have the same problems.



Any thoughts or advice? Do you think I am on the right track? Please refer to the pictures in the threads below, i. e. AC clutch wires chaffed. These pictures are troubling considering what others have observed.



Here are the DTR and TDR threads of interest:



http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=81936



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143897



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130308

 

[Diesel Power]

When I installed my Stage 1 CP3 last week and did the first start I was getting some really rough idling or it would just die. I would have to hold it at high idle just to get the truck to run. Finally everything settled down and all was good. At this time I only had a P0237 code = MAP sensor boost low. I just figured this was due to me disconnecting harnesses etc while installing the studs/twins/Walbro etc.



So over the past week everything was running great until this evening. This is what happened.



I started it up (hot start) and it started idling from 500 rpm to 1000 rpm over and over again - all while spewing white smoke. I got the rpm up and everything settled down, but still rolled the white smoke and then eventually cleared up. Then roll to a stop and then the rpm goes up and down again with the white smoke.



I couldn't see what the rail pressure was since my SPA gauge useless backlighting was non-functional so I waited until I pulled into my garage, shut down, and restarted. The truck is idling at 4500 psi then up to 6500 psi and so forth until it settles down. Every so often at constant 5250 psi idel pressure, the rail pressure would ever-so-faintly blip down to 4500 psi then shoot up to 8000 psi and then right back down to 5250 psi. All the while the feed at the CP3 inlet is at constant pressure.



After a few more shut downs and restarts it finally does the constant rpm up and down thing again with the white smoke. Rail pressures are 5250 psi to 8000 psi or so over and over again. My stock idle rail pressure has always been 5250 psi. Good rail pressure should equal normal injection timing. Low rail pressure should equal late injection timing = white smoke. So I pull the codes:



P0237 MAP sensor voltage too low

P0647 AC voltage too high

P02269 WIF condition



P02269 makes sense since I washed the truck last weekend and got water on the WIF plug since it is now disconnected because of the Walbro setup. It's just a resistance type circuit anyway that sets off a light on the dash.



P0237 I actually got this code on the first start after I finished the 3 week project so I cannot say if it is related to this issue. If the MAP is reading low then the truck will not fuel - at least that is my take on it. Hence the rpm going wacky??? I. e. late fueling = late injection timing = white smoke.



P0647 - well I looked on TDR and DTR and saw that one guy got it when his AC wire chaffed and shorted to ground. This in turn affected a pile of other sensors readings connected to this harness in term of 0-5 v readings and generated all types of codes included the MAP and injector codes.



I'm going to pull the MAP and see if it's dirty or something. I do have a spare MAP in my parts stash just in case. I'm also going to try to trace the harness to the AC unit, Maybe I screwed it up when I installed the twins???



I really do not feel like pulling the CP3 and putting the stock one back one only to have the same problems.



Any thoughts or advice? Do you think I am on the right track? Please refer to the pictures in the threads below, i. e. AC clutch wires chaffed. These pictures are troubling considering what others have observed.



Here are the DTR and TDR threads of interest:



http://www.dieseltruckresource.com/dev/showthread.php?t=81936



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143897



https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130308

those are the exact symptoms of a bad pump or fca, call whoever you got it from and get a new one.

 

[Tomeygun]

those are the exact symptoms of a bad pump or fca, call whoever you got it from and get a new one.

Copy that - When mine did that is was #4 injector coupled with a bad FCA (the canister part thingy that is on the back of the CP3)

 

[JStieger]

Copy that - When mine did that is was #4 injector coupled with a bad FCA (the canister part thingy that is on the back of the CP3)

Tomeygun-



Did your truck get the exact same symptons and/or codes?



I have a known good FCA from my stock pump so I could swap them.



The FCA just controls the fuel flow to return or to the rail, right? Essentially a solenoid valve? If so, the pump internals should otherwise be fine then since it is just a mechanical item with stuff bored out inside??? The truck did run fine otherwise for a week for the most part.



The pump itself was a used pump off of EBAY that was sent to Industrial for flow checks then sent off to Floor It for the mods. Floor It then sent it back to Industrial who then flow checked it and sent it back to me. I noticed that I didn't get the original pump back based on the serial numbers I recorded. However, Floor It put their own serial number stamp on it. Kind of weird so I questioned it and was assured all was OK and even sent the pump back to get re-flowchecked - which passed with flying colors. Nevertheless I was seething inside now! However I took the risk with a used EBAY pump which ultimately passed all the "control" tests.



SOAPBOX WARNING : I just don't understand how these tests can't find a bad FCA until a customer goes through the trouble of installing the pump on a truck! That part is a f'en joke! Especially after all these vendors RAH-RAH-RAH these products! Heck, I might as well should have attached myself with a leash to this pump and personally escorted it to Floor It via Industrial and back. OFF SOAPBOX



Anything special involved on swapping the FCA that I need to watch out for?



Another thing that just struck me is what if in the process of these pump mods that any metal debris did not get thoroughly cleaned out the pump passages and then lodge themselves in the FCA etc? If I find this, then crap will fly!



I'm still going to check the wiring part first as that would be the easiest thing to do.

 

[banshee]

I agree on the FCA, however beware that swapping it with a stock unit will negate a large part of the upgrade in the pump since the largest stock restriction is in the FCA. You could swap and see if it fixes the problem and talk to the vendor about a replacement, however. Pull the modded one out and shake it... you should hear the plunger rattle back and forth if it's good.



EDIT: Nothing special on the removal. Just remove the three torx screws and pull it straight out. It fits snugly in the hole because of the o-rings, but it comes right out.

 

[JStieger]

Thanks for the reply Banshee. I downloaded the TSB on the FCA from Tomeygun's website a while back and just found it now. It looks like a 1/2 job per the DC guidelines.



I didn't think Floor It modified the FCA on these pumps??? The FCA on the Stage 1 pump I have definitely matched up with the appearance of this used pump and I was getting the higher rail pressures out of this pump when it ran properly - 12,000 psi rail pressure within seconds off-idle just taking off from a light!



I'm heading out to the garage in a few minutes and will take some pictures of the Stage 1 FCA versus the stock FCA.

 

[banshee]

No problem! 1/2 hr is generous... you can have one R&R'd in 5 minutes.



The mods to the FCA are mostly internal... the outside will appear stock except the holes should be larger. I have never seen the inside of anyone's modded CP3, but I have pulled a couple stockers apart and modded them myself, and it's a #1 area for restrictions. They are fairly easy to pull apart and get to the internals.

 

[JStieger]

Well no point now in swapping FCA. They are majorly different anyway so the end result is that the modded FCA must be used with a modded CP3 regardless of how I diagnose it.



I took the modded CP3 FCA off and it is majorly bored out in its passages so I can see what Banshee is saying. I took some side by side pictures for comparison purposes.



I'm just going to take my modded CP3 off and re-install my stock one. And talk to Industrial. I wonder if it is better to talk to Floor It directly?



I'm really ticked now.

 

[mattymac]

Makes you wonder what is going on in the FCA after the mods have taken place, passed all the flow tests and now it doesnt work on the truck?

 

[JStieger]

The plot thickens...



I'm yanking the pump off and shipping it back to Industrial. At least it will only take an hour or so now versus 5 hours the first time. The stock pump will go back on.



I'll post pictures later - they are very interesting for the machinist types.



I just hope I'm not out-of-pocket for anything. #@$%!

 

[JStieger]

No problem! 1/2 hr is generous... you can have one R&R'd in 5 minutes.



The mods to the FCA are mostly internal... the outside will appear stock except the holes should be larger. I have never seen the inside of anyone's modded CP3, but I have pulled a couple stockers apart and modded them myself, and it's a #1 area for restrictions. They are fairly easy to pull apart and get to the internals.

According to what I see the FCA has external mods to it too! The pictures will show...



I need to get this done so I can get it shipped via UPS this afternoon... chop... chop!

 

[Diesel Power]

The plot thickens...



I'm yanking the pump off and shipping it back to Industrial. At least it will only take an hour or so now versus 5 hours the first time. The stock pump will go back on.



I'll post pictures later - they are very interesting for the machinist types.



I just hope I'm not out-of-pocket for anything. #@$%!

get used to it. i had one thing fail( cp3) that ruined every thing in my fuel system, that cost a lot of money :{

 

[JStieger]

get used to it. i had one thing fail( cp3) that ruined every thing in my fuel system, that cost a lot of money :{

Are you refering to the modded CP3 when you say "get used to it"? As in 'get used to it failing'??? What failed and ruined everything else? I just want a pump that works.



On another note I put the stock CP3 pump back on and well, let's just say, I overtorqued that cheezy plastic gear cover and broke it in two.



Time to whip out the JB weld so I can at least drive my truck this weekend and get some things towed as well as hopefully be able to go out of town to get my house furniture. Cummins doesn't have any covers in stock nation wide and I found some via Mopar ($11 part), but it will not be here until Tuesday morning.



I was going to spend a couple of hours dynoing this week because this truck ran strong and hard after this pump mod. Well, that's going to be delayed now... sorry AK Ram!

 

[Diesel Power]

Are you refering to the modded CP3 when you say "get used to it"? As in 'get used to it failing'??? What failed and ruined everything else? I just want a pump that works.



On another note I put the stock CP3 pump back on and well, let's just say, I overtorqued that cheezy plastic gear cover and broke it in two.



Time to whip out the JB weld so I can at least drive my truck this weekend and get some things towed as well as hopefully be able to go out of town to get my house furniture. Cummins doesn't have any covers in stock nation wide and I found some via Mopar ($11 part), but it will not be here until Tuesday morning.



I was going to spend a couple of hours dynoing this week because this truck ran strong and hard after this pump mod. Well, that's going to be delayed now... sorry AK Ram!

i was reffering to the out of pocket part

 

[WCounts]

My stage I is still running great. It started right up and idled smoothly with a little more rattle than the stock pump. This may be because it idles at 6900 psi. This pump really smoothed out the curves on the dyno and runs more consistant in the 1/4. No more dips and bumps. The stock pump will not support stock injectors with much duration. I'm still running stock injectors till after the DPM race in sept. I know I'm giving up some hp by not running the rail cap but I want to try some injectors first.

 

[TCluff]

That Sucks Julius, You Would Think They Would Man Up And Get It Taken Care Of Real Quick, At Least That Is What I Would Do If I Ran A Buisness... Hope Everything Works Out, I Am Still Trying To Cough Up 7500 Dollars For My Engine Rebuild, That Doesnt Include The Ceramic Coating Or Head Work... Yikes :--)

 

[JStieger]

That Sucks Julius, You Would Think They Would Man Up And Get It Taken Care Of Real Quick,

Having this happen on Friday sucks, but things are moving along reasonably well thanks to an unknown TDR member that directed help my way! This person will get a beer or two on me if I ever meet him in person. That's all that I can say for now unless I see you around in town.



Anyhow, here are the pictures I took today. Both FCA's appeared good with the "rattling when shaken" indicated as acceptable in the shop manual.



First, removing the stock FCA from the stock CP3 with T25 torx bit...



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The stock FCA...



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Bottom view: Modded FCA on the left, stock FCA on the right...



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Side view: Modded FCA on the left, stock FCA on the right. The internals are definitely modded as Banshee indicated.



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Front pump gear access hole showing where the steering gear puller bolts thread into the gear.



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Read the instructions on the plastic cover otherwise you have to JB Weld it like I did for a temporary fix. There's a gasket on the back of the cover that sits against the front gear case cover, but the plastic cover itself doesn't sit flush against the gear case. I just had a brain fart with this incident, plain and simple. The cover is $5. 85 from DC. The gasket is $3. 70. They will be here late Tuesday. So basically a $5. 85 part that is a non-stock item has kept my truck down for at least another day or two (or more if the JB Weld doesn't hold)...



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[AK RAM]

On another note I put the stock CP3 pump back on and well, let's just say, I overtorqued that cheezy plastic gear cover and broke it in two.

NO WAY!!! :-laf I did the exact same thing. Jeff K was here drinking my beer and just thought it was hilarious. I had Cummins Northwest order me one overnight shipping. The cap was $4. 00, shipping was $14. 00. So when you took it off you didn't see the cast-in letters that said "DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN"? Me neither.

 

[MMeier]

I know I'm giving up some hp by not running the rail cap but I want to try some injectors first.

Can any of you guys post some pics of this rail cap thing? TIA!!!!

 

[Diesel Power]

Can any of you guys post some pics of this rail cap thing? TIA!!!!

when the wife gets off work i will post some for you :-laf