Modifications vs. Drawbacks

[Wolfy]

Hoping for some ultra-low-flame rational thinking here



I'm new to this diesel-rig, thing, so may be coming from a different planet, but I have a question about the eagerness some show to get their hands, tools, and whatever latest gadget someone offers, on their brand new truck.



Anatomy "issues" and hormone levels aside, along with whether smoke and noise are good things or bad, I'm curious as to whether or not the improvements intended for the machine that the Cummins engineers have given us come at some unacknowledged or undiscovered cost. (or are those costs simply ignored as un-important to the particular owner)



Most all design involves unavoidable compromise,... with something lost for something else gained,... and the guys that have spent years evolving the CTD to this particular state of the art are not slouches. Maybe they have even done a better job than Joe Shadetree could have whipped up in his backyard.



No offense to Joe intended, and I realize that many modders are very well equipped and quite knowledgable.



But I wouldn't bet money on their coming up with a better all-round package than Cummins can do/has done.



More than once, when I have had a chance to ask a designer about some design aspect that made no sense to me, I received an explanation that made very good sense of things after all. I think of this whenever I hear "Tear that damn thing off!" "Defeat this!" or "Replace that!".



Is it generally agreed that Cummins has done an excellent job, but some are after "more" in specific areas, and are willing to pay more to get it,... whereas it would not be profitable for Cummins to offer the same to the general user-public?



Or is there a lot of "My cup isn't full enough 'till it runneth over more than yours(... and makes a bigger fuss doing it)!" feeling behind this?



I'd be very interested in some discussion about the motivation, goals, and proven accomplishments of "The Modifier People" , and what any real trade-offs, in other performance factors, durability, environmental effects, etc. , are.



Thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

[Bob4x4]

I think all of the big 3 (well ok what used to be)have upped the power enough for all but the hard core as far as the power goes. Some of us like to persoanilze our rigs for our own taste or specialized use.

You play,you pay rule has gotten more expensive with the newer trucks.



Bob

 

[cArNiVaLwOrKeR]

Bobby4X4

With the revenue you make,,, Money is no object

 

[NIsaacs]

Are you talking about "just the Cummins" or the whole truck? On my 01' I have several mods that I can not see any drawbacks to. The Cummins mods are, factory 275 Injectors, gauges for boost, egt's and transmission temp, BD exhaust brake.



I will list the Edge EZ here, cuz there might be some drawbacks.



Non Cummins mods, brand new 06' tires and wheels from my son for free





"NICK"

 

[JasonCzerak]

The reason you do not see an "SRT" version of the Cummins motor in an "SRT" version of the truck is simple reliability and the market (profit). I would assume emissions would come into play as well now a days.



We as customers and them as after market companies take up that roll and you make your own "SRT" truck.



I had a conversation with a friend back in MI a few years ago about this (works for DC). He tells me they spent 1000's of hours making sure the Viper motor in the SRT-10 RAM didn't break things. That 1000's of hours has to translate into 100's of SALES in order for it to be worth it. (disclaimer: not real numbers for testing and sales!)



If there was a market for a hot rod diesel. They would make it!



However, the market that Edge, TST, Bully dog, ect cater to is small.



The writing on the wall is there, times are a changing. Imagine that new BMW 300D + Bully dog programmer next year should bully dog take up building a programmer for that car.

 

[Wolfy]

Are you talking about "just the Cummins" or the whole truck? On my 01' I have several mods that I can not see any drawbacks to. The Cummins mods are, factory 275 Injectors, gauges for boost, egt's and transmission temp, BD exhaust brake.



I will list the Edge EZ here, cuz there might be some drawbacks.



Non Cummins mods, brand new 06' tires and wheels from my son for free





"NICK"

Nick,



The guages and brake are obvious,... but what was your intent with the 275 injectors, and what was the actual result? (remember, you're talkin to a diesel beginner here

 

[Wolfy]

The reason you do not see an "SRT" version of the Cummins motor in an "SRT" version of the truck is simple reliability and the market (profit). I would assume emissions would come into play as well now a days.



We as customers and them as after market companies take up that roll and you make your own "SRT" truck.

Jason,



Not familiar with the entire Dodge line,. . only have the Ram brochure, have only looked at diesels.



What is an "SRT" truck?.



Thanks!

 

[JasonCzerak]

Jason,



Not familiar with the entire Dodge line,. . only have the Ram brochure, have only looked at diesels.



What is an "SRT" truck?.



Thanks!

SRT is what Dodge uses for it's "performance" line of factory vehicles. Like the SS for Chevy's. SVT for Fords, anything with an "R" for ricers, anything with an "M" or "AMG" or "S" for the German makes.

 

[RVTRKN]

My opinion on this subject, as noted in other posts, is if you play you pay but please dont cheat D/C when it breaks, it only costs the owners who dont mod.



That being said, if you sled pull, you will need to mod if you want to win or be a serious competitor. If you Drag race same applies, however if you pull or tow RV,s the power at stock levels are good enough and think that the manufactures dial them in, in a well balanced combination that works for the designed limits of the trucks. I think the venders who come up with the programs are professional and have quality components, but should be required to stand behind there claims.



The 6. 7 will make it harder for the programers and D/C have spyware built in the system now to detect the parameters of programers (I wonder how much extra that cost me on the new 6. 7 CTD I purchased) and only time will tell how well they detect them and what D/C tend to do when found.



Steve... ... ... .

 

[NIsaacs]

Humm... . Diesel beginner? I think you might be pulling my leg, the post is to intelligent for that



I was after a modest hp increase on about the same amount of fuel. Cummins makes and produces the 275 hp version of my engine so I was confident of the injectors working well without the overfueling sometimes associated with aftermarket one's, especially on long down hill runs, (no blue smoke). The exhaust brake comes in nicely here, keeps the engine temp up better, too! Also with a small increase in power, I figured the rest of the drive train would not suffer, hence no drawback





"NICK"

 

[Bodie]

I agree Cummins has made a very good package that is getting better with time, but why do we mod?... ...



simply put, we are competitive and cant leave things alone.

 

[Bob4x4]

Humm... . Diesel beginner? I think you might be pulling my leg, the post is to intelligent for that



I was after a modest hp increase on about the same amount of fuel. Cummins makes and produces the 275 hp version of my engine so I was confident of the injectors working well without the overfueling sometimes associated with aftermarket one's, especially on long down hill runs, (no blue smoke). The exhaust brake comes in nicely here, keeps the engine temp up better, too! Also with a small increase in power, I figured the rest of the drive train would not suffer, hence no drawback





"NICK"

I am thinking that the original question is for the 6. 7,not the underpowered older 24 v's:-laf The 07. 5 is a world apart from your version.



Bob

 

[klenger]

First, I want to recognize Wolfy's fantastic writing skills. I do a lot of technical writing in my job (Aerospace Certification Engineer), and we always have 1 or 2 other sets of eyes reviewing our work before it is released. I would be proud to have Wolfy on our staff.



Now for the important part, the only mods I've made to my truck are all in support of towing my 5th wheel: hitch, brake controller, e-brake, bed-liner, etc. My 5th wheel, on the other hand, has had so many mods done to it that there's hardly a flat surface anywhere that hasn't had a hole drilled in it. I will retract this statement emphatically when and if my trailer ever goes up for sale.

 

[Wolfy]

Humm... . Diesel beginner? I think you might be pulling my leg, the post is to intelligent for that



I was after a modest hp increase on about the same amount of fuel. Cummins makes and produces the 275 hp version of my engine so I was confident of the injectors working well without the overfueling sometimes associated with aftermarket one's, especially on long down hill runs, (no blue smoke). The exhaust brake comes in nicely here, keeps the engine temp up better, too! Also with a small increase in power, I figured the rest of the drive train would not suffer, hence no drawback





"NICK"

"Hmmm" backatcha!



Thanks for the compliment, ... I think.



Surely you aren't saying that intelligence is an exclusive of diesel owners.



Send self-addressed stamped envelope for list of other interests with which to occupy a lifetime :-laf



Beginner?



Drove Fire Dept. diesel equipment more than a fews times over a 37 year career, ... but was never really one of the "truck guys".



The 6. 7 3500 DRW now on order/on the way(courtesy of Adam Macomber) will be my first personal diesel.



Thanks for the response

 

[Wolfy]

First, I want to recognize Wolfy's fantastic writing skills. I do a lot of technical writing in my job (Aerospace Certification Engineer), and we always have 1 or 2 other sets of eyes reviewing our work before it is released. I would be proud to have Wolfy on our staff... .

Aww Shucks,... thanks Klenger (head down, hands in pockets, swinging foot and trying hard to fake a blush)



You hiring? I have a bit of amateur "hydrospace" engineering experience (human-powered hydrofoil design. Got a couple sections of nice extruded alum Wortmann FX 63-137 foil left, 7In. chord, 8' L).



I appreciate the feedback, guys.



As someone suggested, my questions refer primarily to those who have expressed an eagerness to "get at" the new 6. 7,... not so much the older models.



I am just curious as to those respects in which the new engine is "not enough" for some.



Thanks to all who responded. Hopefully more will join in.



Two cents worth not required. One cent is OK!

 

[Matt400]

I have a question about the eagerness some show to get their hands, tools, and whatever latest gadget someone offers, on their brand new truck.

I think many get caught up in the Oo. oo. . aaa factor, change the exhaust and hear what must be better flow. Do everything possible to hear the turbo whine and it must be working better.

All in addition to the fueling boxes that produce a seat of pants feel that obviously means something is better cuz... well you know, more is better is the American way.



As you said though, much of it comes at a compromise and many times the compromise is not found till later after the purchase.

Just the other day I noticed an intake system on a D-Max that was rubbing on the hood, crummy fit as the compromise on that one.



Still there are the bomber's that compete and tweak their trucks to get specific tasks done and they accept the compromises.

 

[HLewallen]

Okay, no flame intended here - but - are you serious? Are you new to the diesel thing, or the automotive industry in general? Bottom line: Guys like to build stuff, break stuff, and make war. Unavoidable. Also unavoidable is the fact that Americans are individualistic. We have opinions and like to express ourselves, many times in our vehicles. If you are looking for a deeper understanding than that, you best talk to your clergy or your psychologist. As far as the diesel thing is concerned, it is just a different playground than the V8 musclecar, or import tuner, or any other scene. The rules are a little different, but if you hang around long enough you will pick them up.



Note this does not include the professional or power users that are building something out of necessity. Myself? I just picked up my '07. 5 Saturday night, and I am already trying to arrange my suspension upgrage since I personally think the wallowy stock suspension is a joke. Engine is plenty for me. But that's the trick - they build a truck to suit the "norm", but the aftermarket thrives on selling products to individuals.



Chevy spends a lot of R&D on all versions of the Corvette. Should handle pretty well and be fast enough right? Hah! Merely a starting point! Being an engineer, I am afflicted with a more serious strain of this disease. If it isn't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet.



Anyways - you asked for thoughts. Them there are mine.

 

[Andersonville]

Air the tires up to 65lbs and the "wallowy" might go away. The dealers only put 40lbs in the tires so you will experience a soft test drive.

 

[HLewallen]

Being an "enthusiast", I ordered my truck the way I like it (no test drives) and checked the air pressure myself (among other things) before testing the truck. Like any sane dealer would, the tires were inflated to maximum load condition so they don't get sued. The rears need to be deflated to 45psi for unloaded condition. But I appreciate the thought. Many people don't know what the pressure is in the components that are a vehicle's only interface to the road.



But this isn't really a technical thread, and since the testosterone from my last post is still coursing through my veins, I will restate my opinion - the stock suspension sucks. Can't even drive over speed humps without bottoming out. The '05 was the same.

 

[drury]

Pretty much what HLewallen said. We mod to make the truck do something it doesn't do or because we see it as an expression of our individuality. I've done a lot of modding, and while I don't regret any of it, I can tell you that the more you mod, the more problems you will introduce that need fixing. Do I need all my extra performance? Absolutely not. Do I derive great joy and fun from it? Absolutely!



As far as drawbacks go, with my higher performance I get reduced longevity, poor emissions, and as a user I have to be much more conscious of what the truck is doing and pay more attention to my driving. When the engine is cold, I can't drive it at full performance levels, and I can't whip out into traffic like I normally would. When the engine is revved up, I have to be careful about accelerating around corners or I'll go into a powerslide. On the other hand, as an engineer, I really enjoy having a truck with lots of buttons that not just anybody can drive. But clearly, what works for me wouldn't work for the mass market.



If you want to mod, go ahead and mod. If you don't then don't. We've got lots of people from all ends of the spectrum on this board. But really, if you have to ask the question, then you probably shouldn't be messing with your pristine factory truck. Go spend time and money with the hobbies you already have that make you happy.