Guns, Bows, Shooting Sports, and Hunting Moly coated bullets

[The patriot]

almost forgot....

I also ordered a 264 LBC barrel the other day.
I"M STOKED!

Black Hole Weaponry : 18" . 264lbc (6. 5) Standard Profile Mid Length Gas System . 750 Gas Block - 1x9 Twist - $265. 00

 

[The patriot]

Taught him everything I know......

My little brother is a seasoned shooter (his lunch break is at the range..... every day!) and he told me he couldn't take more than a few rounds from a 50 BMG Barret M82. :-laf



He's distinguished in high power, area 8 IDPA champ about 2 yrs back (always in the top 3 ) so I'll trust him. :-laf

 

[SRadke]

I have a couple . 50 BMG's, they don't hurt me a bit. Keeping in mind they're a 25+ lb rifle. The most I've ever been hurt was by a 4. 5 lb 30-06 that punched and scope ringed me in the same shot. I handed that one back to the owner and said get it sway from me!

There's a big difference between getting pushed by a heavy rifle and being punched by a light one!

-Scott

 

[GHarman]

I have a couple . 50 BMG's, they don't hurt me a bit. Keeping in mind they're a 25+ lb rifle. The most I've ever been hurt was by a 4. 5 lb 30-06 that punched and scope ringed me in the same shot. I handed that one back to the owner and said get it sway from me!



There's a big difference between getting pushed by a heavy rifle and being punched by a light one!



-Scott

Are you a member of the FCSA? I was for a couple of years as I dreamed! Just couldnt find the place to shoot one, so it became an unfulfilled love:{! I was very close! Course, I almost kissed a "Movie Starlet" but never received an invitation to her party:-laf! However, I drove by the location of the shindig, accidentally GregH



PS. Here's a link!

Fifty Caliber Shooters Association

 

[HHhuntitall]

... :sniff:... . someone's talking about guns... ... .



OH, there you are!!



The 6. 5 Grendel, or LBC is a decent looking cartridge... . it's certainly got better brass for it than the . 260... although you can now get Lapua brass for the . 260. I'm not quite sold on it yet, but keep us updated on how it performs.....



Biggest, baddest, kick I ever took was from a . 585 Nyati!! Ouch!! I'm not a little guy, so I can stand up there with just about anyone, but after that bite, I think I would have been glad to have been eaten by a lion!!!! I shot three rounds through it, standing, just to pretend to be a tough guy, and the last two rounds sucked my headphones up over my eyes!! I've shot and own several . 50s, and even shot one without the muzzle brake(to see if it was affecting bullet impact). But that rifle weighed 34lbs without a scope. The Granite Mountain mauser action Nyati I shot weighed around 12lbs..... not near enough. My forward grip was compromised ever time I pulled the trigger... . and grouping?!?! FORGET ABOUT IT!!!! It's all about how bad you flinch!!!! It'll make you appreciate a fine . 243Win!!!! It freakin' peeled the skin up on the callus' on my hand!! WOW!! Follow up shot?!?!? NO Thanks, I'll just let the Buffalo stomp and gore me, it can't hurt any worse!!!



On barrel cleaner... I've used a lot, from shooting hunting rifles, blackpowder, prewar corrosive ammo, benchrest, F-class, and FCSA . 50 BMG matches, and the best I've found for modern copper jacketed ammo, including Moly coated, is..... New for 2007 This patchout stuff is unbelieveable!! I've taken rifles I've cleaned with JB's Boreshine/Rub, Hoppe's #9 Copper solvent, and Shooter's Choice, and when I run the Patchout through it, it pulls even MORE copper out!! I don't even use a brush on good match barrels anymore!! I use nylon brushes on poorly lapped factory barrels to help get the copper out of the crooks and crannies..... I probably shouldn't even tell you guys about it, as it's getting hard to get at times!! And you can even leave it in the barrel, as it protects the metal!! (so the guy claims. I've got some soaking in my office, and no negative impact, yet). I'm not sure how it works on corrosive ammo, but shooter's choice is a good first scrub for that. Shooter's choice, followed by Brake Part's Cleaner and a good bronze brush scrubbing. No SS brushes, ever!! They can groove and ruin a good barrel!!(of course, if you're shooting corrosive ammo, I hope it's not a "good" barrel!!)



On the 80gr Matchking bullets, they're an accurate bullet, if you've got the right twist and a good barrel, but as said, they'll limit you to a single shot. For magazine use, I usually go as big as a 69 or 77. I don't like the 77s(for mag use in the AR), as there's so much bullet in the neck, it seems to build pressure like crazy, and makes the action cycle too quick, unless you use a carrier weight system, IMHO. I've tried several different reamers and neck diameter's and single shot seems to be the only way for them to go, for me. The 69s do well with mag and seem to me to be the best compromise in velocity and energy. I like those. I used to like the 75gr Hornady A-max, but several bad lots have turned me off on them... . and not just in . 224. No quality control, I guess.



Getting to the moly coating(finally!!), I've shot a lot of rounds in a lot of rifles, and the moly only seems to help in really fast rounds, like the 22-250, 264 Win mag, 220 Swift, 300 Win mag... . if you're shooting lots of rounds, reapeatedly, without cleaning, like in a tactical training course or prairie dog hunting, they'll help the barrel last around 15-20% longer, in my experience. For match rounds, they don't really seem to help. A match barrel only lasts as long as it'll last. Most of the time, it's the throat that gets shot out, and you can set it back, which takes the majority of the heat cracks and throat erosion out of it. Fast barrels, like the 6. 5x284 usually wash out after the initial set back in a few hundred rounds, usually around mid-way down the barrel, were you see a pressure spike in dual base powders.....



As for other options, Greg, have you heard of Boron Nitride coating? D-TAC 115gr 6mm Boron Nitride (500 box) - DIES, BRASS, ETC. by Superior Shooting Systems David Tubb, need I say more?



I didn't know you were in the FCSA, Greg! Another subject we've never gotten to! I've got a real nice McMillan action with K&P barrel... . I think it's 48 lbs. You need to come to Texas. We'll get the kinks snapped out of your neck!!! 750gr Barnes solid, 232gr V2029, CCI35(CCI sucks, but the IMI primers are hard to come by!!)

 

[BIGNASTY]

I wanted to put a finger on a 50 BMG but the best I got to do was a 50 on a tripod. THAT WAS FUN when it was just for fun.

 

[HHhuntitall]

OH, and I forgot to mention the M82 Barret. Those are just Baddddd*sssss!! Recoil operated, with two huge springs, simple in design. Krieger SS barrel. 1" groups at 400yds. I'm a fan. I hope to own one some day. They're really high, right now. I keep hoping I'll find a good, low-round used one for less than a good low-mileage Cummins truck!!



I got to shoot a prototype . 416 Barret 6-7years(?) ago in Tennesee at a field test day at Barrett Arms. I was a tag-along, supposedly for security, but more for driving and getting coffee and water. I only got to shoot because it was mentioned I was a member of the FCSA, and liftime member of the NRA, qualified as High Master, so I guess they saw it fitting I shoot the rifle(maybe they were afraid to get kicked, too..... ). I was impressed. I was a little dissapointed I didn't get to shoot the 25mm XM109..... looks like a scaled up M82, and it's impressive, to say the least!! But the powers that be weren't interested in it.

 

[GHarman]

There He IS!

HHhuntitall! Man, I was runnin out of stuff to write about! You done rescued me!

Yes I have heard about the boron Nitride. I'm all set up for moly coating. May try it at a later date!

Yes I was a member of the FCSA more than a decade ago! I still have their magazines in my library! Loved the way Skip Talbot shot those leadalloy steel bore riders in the K&P barrels! What bullets are winning the most recent matches? I just noticed a new 1000 yard record group on the FCSA site! 1. 9" and centered, Thats OUTSTANDING! The picture showed the shooter and the top half of his rifle standing verticle. The Muzzle Brake looks like a truck muffler:-laf. Wonder ifn it has a Catalitic converterfer the muzzleblast! What is the average payload, 750 Gr. bullet and 250 Grains of powder? Thats measurement by 1/2 can of powder! Sorry BIGNASTY yer . 338/378 CANNERN uses only 1/4 can of powder:-laf. !

I bought some "Patchout". Have only used it once, not enough for a trial. One thing about Brake cleaner as a wash. Great for cleaning brushes but make absolutely sure you are using the Non Clorinated stuff. Chlorine and any other member of the "ine" family of chemicals(Chlorine,Florinated,Chloroflorcarbons,etc) are DEATH to Stainless Steel! AND the higher the temperature the more aggressive the action!

GregH

 

[BIGNASTY]

Excuse me im so jealous im going to my room and :{ for awhile, with a 50 at 400 yards you dont even need a spoting scope do you

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall! Man, I was runnin out of stuff to write about! You done rescued me!

Yeah, right!! Just like I was about to run out of things to say!!!



Are you going to moly the bullets for your '06?

Yes I was a member of the FCSA more than a decade ago! I still have their magazines in my library! Loved the way Skip Talbot shot those leadalloy steel bore riders in the K&P barrels! What bullets are winning the most recent matches? I just noticed a new 1000 yard record group on the FCSA site! 1. 9" and centered, Thats OUTSTANDING! The picture showed the shooter and the top half of his rifle standing verticle. The Muzzle Brake looks like a truck muffler:-laf. Wonder ifn it has a Catalitic converterfer the muzzleblast! What is the average payload, 750 Gr. bullet and 250 Grains of powder? Thats measurement by 1/2 can of powder! Sorry BIGNASTY yer . 338/378 CANNERN uses only 1/4 can of powder:-laf. !

I'm not sure who shot the new record, but I'd wager it's Lee Rassmussen or his wife Sheri. They are really good. I think they hold the majority of the records across the board. But they're really active in the sport and association. I saw a few back where they just got a new KW travel truck... . They're my kinda people, I think.



A 750gr bullet w/250grs of V2029 is a fast load, probably close to 3100. By my program that's just under 15k ft-lbs muzzle energy, 7869 ft-lbs at 1000yds, and 1169ft-lbs at 5000yds. I believe maximum point blank range is just under 10,000yds... . around 2 miles... . at sea level, 59*, 30% humidity, etc. A can of powder (1lb) can load 28 rounds, exactly, presuming you don't spill a drop, and you don't get shorted any from the factory!!

I bought some "Patchout". Have only used it once, not enough for a trial. One thing about Brake cleaner as a wash. Great for cleaning brushes but make absolutely sure you are using the Non Clorinated stuff. Chlorine and any other member of the "ine" family of chemicals(Chlorine,Florinated,Chloroflorcarbons,etc) are DEATH to Stainless Steel! AND the higher the temperature the more aggressive the action!

GregH

Yep, non-chlorinated. Better for me in the shop, too. Chlorine and brake fluid, that'll clear a room!! I had a bottle of patch-out in my case when I was up for the 600 yard practice..... it's the stuff I've been wanting. I don't know how you could improve on it, and I don't feel I'm easily impressed.....

 

[HHhuntitall]

Excuse me im so jealous im going to my room and :{ for awhile, with a 50 at 400 yards you dont even need a spoting scope do you

Yes, after the first few rounds, you only see a few black spots..... but 400 works well for accuracy testing... ...

 

[The patriot]

For anyone serious about getting an M82, or whatever the current mil nomenclature is... . OOW has them on sale for $2500 off MSRP.



I was getting pretty serious about the Steyr 50 but they sold out fast. IIRC they were about 2K when I was looking at them. #@$%!

 

[BIGNASTY]

THE WIFE WOULD KILL ME STOP IT she said a long time ago dont you think you have enough guns? How many do you have? I went in and counted and told her 40. So any time I get a new one she asks me how many gun's do you have? I tell her 40 she seem's ok with that so, 40 it is

 

[HHhuntitall]

For anyone serious about getting an M82, or whatever the current mil nomenclature is... . OOW has them on sale for $2500 off MSRP.



I was getting pretty serious about the Steyr 50 but they sold out fast. IIRC they were about 2K when I was looking at them. #@$%!

Mil number is M102, I believe. Passed army trials with flying colors, even won the Army's Weapon of the year in 04 or '06, I believe.....



OOW? Officer Of the Watch?!? What are they, demilitarized units? The Army wasn't letting any go the last time I checked.....



The Steyrs were on backorder in '08 after three were used against the Marines in Iraq, they were found blown all to hell by the Air Force, of course. By the serial numbers, they were supposed to be have been kept in state in the private Afghan army, with an end user agreement signed and on file with Steyr, but SOMEHOW they ended up in insurgent's hands... . go figure. But the US had an importation ban on them until Steyr worked out the problem. Steyr immediately shut down delivery of the remaining rifles, but the damage was done... . I like the Steyrs. The Armalite AR 50 is nice, as is the Barrett M99 and M95s. Much more affordable than the auto. Ferret Arms makes the Spider, and then there's EDM, with both a bolt gun and an auto, in both 50bmg and 408Cheytac. That's just the list of the ones that comes to the top of my mind for factory rifles. I've shot most of them, and they're all pretty decent rifles, if not just darn good. Serbu rifles out of Florida is supposed to have come out with a new auto . 50, which uses a hydraulic dampener to reduce recoil. They only use a 26" barrel, and a semi-military chamber so you can shoot both military surplus or handloads... ... I'm supposed to get to shoot one the first week in November. We'll see how good it is.....



On a note of ones to avoid, I'd watch out for the . 50 AR conversions. They're not very durable, from what I've seen, and hard on your lowers. And the Vulcan V50ss single shots are pretty shoddy workmanship. I've shot several of those, sighting in and working up loads, and the barrels are barely even lapped(you can see the button rifling marks with the naked eye), the bolt is stiff as hell in some and loose in others, and every machined edge is rough. While they're cheap, @$2000(cheap as far as . 50s go), you don't really get much for the money. I'd say go with the Steyr, Armalite, or Ferret for the money. Oh, and Cobb Manufacturing, purchased by Bushmaster a while back. They made a decent rifle. I'm not sure what Bushmaster is offering now. They had a cheesy looking . 50 listed under their Military rifles at one time..... and way high for what they were.



And yes, you can use Moly bullets in your new . 50.....

 

[HHhuntitall]

THE WIFE WOULD KILL ME STOP IT she said a long time ago dont you think you have enough guns? How many do you have? I went in and counted and told her 40. So any time I get a new one she asks me how many gun's do you have? I tell her 40 she seem's ok with that so, 40 it is

Yeah, I only have 25 or 30.



I did tell the wife I had all the firearms I'll ever want... . but now I need to start on my kids collection. And those I just traded for a turbo..... and that one I can make good money on, I don't have anything in it. I got these for a set of tires... ... Those two, I'm just cleaning for a friend. That one's going to Tulsa to be traded for something, brass and powder, probably.



On another note, I did make the mistake of showing up with a chrome plated Baby Eagle a few years back, and I showed it to the wife. I jokingly told her it was for her, she asked to see it, looked it over, cycled the action, looked down the sights, stood up in a modified Weaver stance with it, cycled it again... ..... looked up at me, smiled, said "Thank you!", and walked off with it... ... . :--) :WTFjusthappened:

 

[GHarman]

HHhuntitall,

Are you going to moly the bullets for your '06?

Yes, most definitely. It really helps!
The . 30/338 is really the big benefactor from moly use. I have around 850-900 rounds through it with loads that leave extractor and bolt face marks on the cases. I believe I am running pressures above normal operating ranges. The cases are Federal 338 Winchester Magnum necked to . 30. They are neck turned for a . 335 ND chamber and neck sized, only. Using a GI bore mirror the throat looks really smooth with the lands only slightly rounded. I dont hammer a whole bunch of rounds through it at one setting. Just shoot it like hunting. The last time I shot it, fired 2 shots at 500 yards w 190 Gr. Sierra MK's moly coated. . They were less than 1 1/2" apart. Heres a couple of pictures. The 3 shots at the lower left are from an iron sighted (tang sight and fiber optic front bead). 300 Savage 99 fired at 300 Yards.
In addition to my comments on Skip Talbot using those lathe turned leadalloy, bore rider . 50's with the groove diameter driving band. He also coated them with molybdenum disulfide powder. Wonder what kind of barrel life he experienced!
I must have had some old timers disease, spending to much time in the "politics section":-laf. Anyway, I mentioned 7 miles as a maximum range where 7,000 yards would be more appropriate. Wonder what the ballistics would be like with those Barnes offerings! MAN! Those are slippery lookin ICBM's! Please see;
Barnes Bullets - . 510" 750 GR TAC-LR BT (50 BMG)

GregH

 

[GHarman]

Yes, after the first few rounds, you only see a few black spots..... but 400 works well for accuracy testing... ...

Are them spots the ones floating in front of yer eyes along with the bright flashes:-laf!

The bolt action . 50 I fired was built by a retired Coors Machinist. He used a . 55 BOYES anti-ank rifle action and attached stock/recoil mechanism. It required a side mounted scope which he was working on at the time. He used a surplus GI M-2 barrel and refit it to the Boyes action, which reminded me of a supersized, upside down 1917 Enfield! He brought it to the range to test fire the thing. WOW What a rush! One round into the backstop at 200 yards and a cubic yard of dirt fell out, The dust and sand blew off the benches, 2 down on either side! We fired it several times with similar effect on the dirt backstop. Thankfully there was a mountain directly behind the backstop!!! GregH

 

[HHhuntitall]

HHhuntitall,

Yes, most definitely. It really helps!

The . 30/338 is really the big benefactor from moly use. I have around 850-900 rounds through it with loads that leave extractor and bolt face marks on the cases. I believe I am running pressures above normal operating ranges. The cases are Federal 338 Winchester Magnum necked to . 30. They are neck turned for a . 335 ND chamber and neck sized, only. Using a GI bore mirror the throat looks really smooth with the lands only slightly rounded. I dont hammer a whole bunch of rounds through it at one setting. Just shoot it like hunting. The last time I shot it, fired 2 shots at 500 yards w 190 Gr. Sierra MK's moly coated. . They were less than 1 1/2" apart. Heres a couple of pictures. The 3 shots at the lower left are from an iron sighted (tang sight and fiber optic front bead). 300 Savage 99 fired at 300 Yards.

Nice. I guess you got down on the bench and got stable!! Ejector marks? I thought those were required for hunting loads?!!? Ever got a Chrony on 'em to see what they're doing? I've been wanting to load some 190 Bergers in this 300 Win mag of my cuz's to see what they'll do. It eats 168s like candy, and with light fire-forming loads it's bumping them out at just over 3600fps. The moly would really help that rifle. Mikee really likes those 168s, he shoots them in two different 300WMs, and has really good luck with them. Dad's been using the 190 Bergers in his . 308, and had really good luck. He took 3rd up at Tulsa a week ago in FTR, and won out at Capitan, I think it was. That's been a good rifle, so far. It's just hard for me to get behind a . 308. Gotta get my M1A out for hogs. They've been getting out so far across the pasture, I can't get a shot through the brush with the little AR.

In addition to my comments on Skip Talbot using those lathe turned leadalloy, bore rider . 50's with the groove diameter driving band. He also coated them with molybdenum disulfide powder. Wonder what kind of barrel life he experienced!

I must have had some old timers disease, spending to much time in the "politics section":-laf. Anyway, I mentioned 7 miles as a maximum range where 7,000 yards would be more appropriate. Wonder what the ballistics would be like with those Barnes offerings! MAN! Those are slippery lookin ICBM's! GregH

Skip had two rifles loaned out, and he was shooting another, he called "Cyborg. " It was a rail gun, and most impressive. I don't think he ever got the barrels shot out on 'em, but he was happy with his progress. I know Lothar-Walther was making some for him. He had more relaoding data than any man I've ever met!! He was very meticulous in keeping his notes. And I can't say as how many he had, or was working on for other people. He was a heck of a guy I only got to meet once, but heard a lot about everywhere.



Here's a pic of some handloads for my McMillan. They're 750gr Barnes Solids, one moly-coated. The other is the 750gr Hornady A-max. The Barnes use 240gr V2029 with CCI 35. The Hornady's build too much pressure, so they're backed down to 230. Copper jacket has more resistance, I guess. The Barnes are quite a bit more accurate in this rifle. You can't really tell any difference at 400, but at 850 and 1250(where my range works out on tank dams down the canyon) you can tell quite a bit of difference. At 1250, no wind, cool weather, I can get 5" groups or better pretty consistently with the Barnes. The Hornady's never do better than 5-6". I don't think the rifle will win matches, but it might be because of the ogre on the trigger... .

 

[HHhuntitall]

Are them spots the ones floating in front of yer eyes along with the bright flashes:-laf!

The bolt action . 50 I fired was built by a retired Coors Machinist. He used a . 55 BOYES anti-ank rifle action and attached stock/recoil mechanism. It required a side mounted scope which he was working on at the time. He used a surplus GI M-2 barrel and refit it to the Boyes action, which reminded me of a supersized, upside down 1917 Enfield! He brought it to the range to test fire the thing. WOW What a rush! One round into the backstop at 200 yards and a cubic yard of dirt fell out, The dust and sand blew off the benches, 2 down on either side! We fired it several times with similar effect on the dirt backstop. Thankfully there was a mountain directly behind the backstop!!! GregH

:-laf Luckily, I don't have to sort through "Battleship row" to find the sights!! I've seen the Boyes rifle. They're not so common these days, but they used to be the best way to build a . 50. It's nice that McMillan builds an action, as well as a few others. I know it's a good way to dust the bed off on my truck!!



I fired some API rounds 2-3 years ago. I shot quite a few of them. I obtained them from a local PD, under the agreement I had to "destroy" them. I've pretty much got that done, one round at a time!! Anyway, I shot one round, it went in the tank dam, came out about 6 ft up the dam, went straight up around 1,000 ft, and came down in my pasture. Not a problem, except it was still burning bright!!!! I threw the rifle in the truck, and Jason said,"I don't see any smoke!?" Nope, that's because it's two feet tall flames!!! I drove over the gate in the trap to get in the Middle pasture, Baja'd down the hill, and I burned holes in my tennie-shoes, singed the end of my pants, and plum wore myself out!! I'd stomp for a minute with one foot until it got too hot, and then stomp with the other!! I had a good friend with me, I was letting him shoot some, and if he hadn't been there, it would have gotten away from me!!! He had on heavy leather boots!!! :-laf Funny now, but scary at the time. It could have easily burned off 8-10k acres!!! :{ Lesson learned, no more APIs except in the river!!! Or tracers... .



At Tulsa, we built up a mound of dirt off to the left of #1 taget for . 50 use. They won't let us shoot at the pit targets, but at least they'll let us use part of the backstop so we can use the berms... . a couple of us have petitioned to use the last three or five targets for . 50cal, as they're not used very often. I don't think it's too much to ask, considering we spend a lot of time working down there..... Otherwise, the best range I know of is out the back door... . consider Coyotes on the hill a range "perk"... .

 

[GHarman]

Outstanding looking rounds HHhuntitall! Yes, Id love to get the kinks "kicked out of my neck" some day:-laf!

I havent chronographed the 190's as yet. Uncoated 165 Noslers were at 3270FPS, Coated 185Gr. VLD Bergers were 3175FPS. The Bergers, I believe I told you are . 3075" at the pressure ring. I'd love to try some proper sized 185,190-230 Grain VLD or Hybrid Berger bullets, moly coated, in this rifle! Velocities are out of a 26" H-S 10X barrel. While not as high as you are getting, this rifle is VERY accurate. I am using R-19 powder. I am sure I could get higher velocities with other powder choices but this seems to be the harmonic bell ringer in this barrel. I have a 3 shot group, fired at 200 yards measuring right at 1/2" and centered. For a belted case on a Remington 700 action, it is as good as I can do! The target is in my loading log over at the shop. Ill take a picture of it and post as soon as possible. GregH