Montana 5th wheel

[RustyJC]

Tongue weight doesn't increase the weight of the trailer.

Say WHAT????



The total weight of a trailer is the sum of the axle weights plus the tongue (or, in the case of a 5th wheel, pin) weight.



Rusty

 

[SearsK]

The sticker on the trailer specifies UVW= includes the entire weight of the trailer

 

[RustyJC]

What does that have to do with your statement that the tongue weight does not increase the weight of a trailer?



Rusty

 

[SearsK]

Guess I said that wrong. The trailer weight plus the tongue weight is the UVW

 

[HBarlow]

Manufacturers today weigh their units after they are built. No they do not inlude a battery or LP in the tanks. All options (today) are included in the weight. Most people load anywhere 500 to 1200 #'s. Yes I do use the dry weight, and allow 100 to 1500 #'s to determine how much a vehicle will be towing. Tongue weight is determined by the location of the axles. It should be at least 15% of the trailer weight. Not enough tongue weight will cause trailer sway. Tongue weight doesn't increase the weight of the trailer. Its included in the uvw specified on the unit

That statement is fundamentally incorrect also!

You are getting yourself in deeper with each post. The information you are providing is precisely the reason why I always recommend that potential buyers ignore anything a trailer salesman tells them.

NuWa Industries, maker of the HitchHiker line provides unit dry weights and the weights of all options. It is up to the buyer to add those optional accessoies which his trailer has. I have not compared the actual unloaded scale weight of my trailer to the manufacturer's weight figures for my trailer. I IGNORE dry weights. They are of no value to me whatsoever.

My HH fiver has a GVWR on the VIN tag of 14,100 lbs. I have found that it weighs 14,000 lbs. loaded for our normal travel. If I didn't constantly nag my wife about all the junk she thinks she has to shove into every cabinet, closet, drawer, and storage area it would weigh even more.

My cab and chassis dually is rated by Ram to tow 24,000 lbs. My gross combined weight is around 25k to 26k. The kingpin weight of my trailer is more than 3500 lbs.

If I had paid any attention to dry weight of this trailer I might have been dumb enough to buy a SRW truck. How overloaded and unsafe would my truck and trailer have been?

 

[SearsK]

Mr. Barlow, I have not disagreed with anything you have said. I do warn my customers no to over load their units. The average weekend camper loads 800 to a 1000 #'s. The cargo capacity of a camper may be 2500#'s, but not everybody loads that heavy. I myself am like you, I load my 5W heavy and have the truck to handle it. Sorry we don't see eye to eye. Nobody has the same opinion on everything, I have a good bunch of satisfied customers. I'm happy with that. Happy camping to you, have a good day

 

[Grizzly]

SearsK,



Exactly what kind of training do you go through to become an RV salesman. Is it all, "on the job training"? I don't mean any disrespect, but I've talked to many RV salesmen and none of them tell you the same thing. They only tell you what you want to hear. When asked very technical questions, such as structural design or capacities, most don't know. Even the dealer owners don't always know. I usually wind up going to the shop and talk to the lead repairman because they know far more than the salesmen.



When shopping for a 5th wheel, I like to go to an independent RV repair shop that don't sell RV's, but only repair any brand and ask them which brand of trailer is best and why. They know because they work on them. They know quality from junk. A salesman can't give you that information because they don't work on them.



george

 

[Barry]

Opinions are like belly buttons, most folks have one.

II Barry 8:3



I have run as high as 7500 lbs. on the drive axle of my SRW 3500. But I was not comfortable doing it until I went to Rickson wheels and 19. 5 load G tires.



If you are going to run a SRW truck with heavy rear axle weights, do yourself and your family a favor and increase the load carrying capacity of the rear wheels and tires.



When you get back from your trip, put the OEMs back on to go grocery shopping.



mi dos centavos... ... ... ...

 

[HBarlow]

Mr. Barlow, I have not disagreed with anything you have said. I do warn my customers no to over load their units. The average weekend camper loads 800 to a 1000 #'s. The cargo capacity of a camper may be 2500#'s, but not everybody loads that heavy. I myself am like you, I load my 5W heavy and have the truck to handle it. Sorry we don't see eye to eye. Nobody has the same opinion on everything, I have a good bunch of satisfied customers. I'm happy with that. Happy camping to you, have a good day

Perhaps. But if your buyer selects a truck and trailer based on your recommendation what does he do when he wants to take a month long RV vacation and must load his truck with all he and his family will require for the trip? A prudent buyer makes sure he buys enough truck for the maximum loaded weight of his trailer or, if he already has the truck, he makes sure he does not buy a trailer with a max loaded weight greater than the safe capacity of his truck.

If a salesman tried to sell me an RV using dry weight figures I would walk on him before he finished his story.

It's none of my business how you conduct yours but I think you do your buyers a disservice quoting them dry weight figures.

 

[HBarlow]

Opinions are like belly buttons, most folks have one.
II Barry 8:3

I have run as high as 7500 lbs. on the drive axle of my SRW 3500. But I was not comfortable doing it until I went to Rickson wheels and 19. 5 load G tires.

If you are going to run a SRW truck with heavy rear axle weights, do yourself and your family a favor and increase the load carrying capacity of the rear wheels and tires.

When you get back from your trip, put the OEMs back on to go grocery shopping.

mi dos centavos... ... ... ...

Yes, Barry, that is true.

But some have opinions that can be supported with factual information and sound reasoning and some do not.

Would you really recommend that a new or prospective RV buyer load his SRW truck to 7500 lbs. on the rear axle?

 

[SearsK]

SearsK,



Exactly what kind of training do you go through to become an RV salesman. Is it all, "on the job training"? I don't mean any disrespect, but I've talked to many RV salesmen and none of them tell you the same thing. They only tell you what you want to hear. When asked very technical questions, such as structural design or capacities, most don't know. Even the dealer owners don't always know. I usually wind up going to the shop and talk to the lead repairman because they know far more than the salesmen.



When shopping for a 5th wheel, I like to go to an independent RV repair shop that don't sell RV's, but only repair any brand and ask them which brand of trailer is best and why. They know because they work on them. They know quality from junk. A salesman can't give you that information because they don't work on them.



george

George, I'll be the first to tell you, there are a lot of RV salesmen who know very little about what they sell, and would also say most don't camp. I've camped and have been involved in the RV industry since 1980. I've worked parts, service, repairs, and sales. I've been to the plants, factory training, and trade shows. I'm not an expert, I learn something new quite often. I like what I do and enjoy camping. No mater what you sell, if you don't know your product, and how to feature benefit it, you won't be successful. I try to provide good information, if I'm wrong I'll admit it. I tell people all the time they need a bigger tow vehicle to tow what they want to buy. One of the biggest problems I run into is people who believed the salesman who sold them their tow vehicle.

 

[Barry]

Uncle Harvey,



Not with OEM wheels and tires... ... ... ... ... ... ... . hence the recommendation of 19. 5 wheels and tires... ... ... ... ... ... ... . at least on the rear axle.



mi dos centavos... ... ... .

 

[HBarlow]

Barry,

I think 19. 5" wheels and tires are a good solution for heavy trailer towing with SRW trucks.

 

[Grizzly]

George, I'll be the first to tell you, there are a lot of RV salesmen who know very little about what they sell, and would also say most don't camp. I've camped and have been involved in the RV industry since 1980. I've worked parts, service, repairs, and sales. I've been to the plants, factory training, and trade shows. I'm not an expert, I learn something new quite often. I like what I do and enjoy camping. No mater what you sell, if you don't know your product, and how to feature benefit it, you won't be successful. I try to provide good information, if I'm wrong I'll admit it. I tell people all the time they need a bigger tow vehicle to tow what they want to buy. One of the biggest problems I run into is people who believed the salesman who sold them their tow vehicle.

Sounds like you are an exception to most RV salesmen. Your resume sounds impressive having had experience in all phases of the RV industry plus some actual factory training.



Was your training for any particular brand of RV. What brand of RV have you sold mostly and where?



george

 

[dcoffman]

I have to say this. I started out camping in a fold up tent trail, then a 16' Shasta, then a 20'. I then sold it and order a new 92 Prowler 30' 5th wheel. It should had been painted yellow. After 5 trips back to the factory ( I took it twice) in Maryland it became a pretty good unit. I traded for another 30' Prowler, different model 305X. It was a used unit and a very good one. I owned it seven years. It went Yellowstone,down to Jackson Hole and back , then in 2002 we took it Alaska and back. That was a very pleasant trip with no problems with the trailer. We traded it in 2006 for a 2002 Jayco Eagle 311. That was a great unit. We traded it this year for a 2011 Starcraft Lexion ( built by Jayco). According to the info I read on here all these units are junk. I can't afford a Mobile Suite, HitchHicker, Teaton, or any other top dollar unit. If I spent $75--$100k on a camper I might just as well stay at the Holiday Inn. My Starcraft has a Dexter frame and axles under it,but does have Lippord jacks on the rear, and is inslulated up there with the higher units. Just about everyone that owns a Montana, that I've talked to say it's the best unit they have ever owned.
When we went to Alaska there was one Prowler(me), a HH, a Layton, Cedar Creek,and a Alfa Ideal. The only one that had problems was the Layton. His problem was being overloaded. He had 6k axles put in in Whitehorse and had no more trouble.
I really believe they all have troubles some more than others. If you like what have that is the main thing. Not tryiny to affend anyone just my opinion. You all know what opinions are like.

 

[RVTRKN]

I disagree. I have a Ram 2500. I also have a 38' toyhauler, with a Gross weight rating of 16,000#. When loaded, ready to go, I am at 22,000# gross, 2,000# over the gross rating.



However, the AXLE weights are ALL within specs. They are the ones I am concerned with, so you do not overload the mechanics.



The front axle is rated at 5200#, and is carrying 4940#.

The rear axle is rated at 6000#, and is carrying 5640#.

The trailer axles are at 5960# and 5400#, both within specs. The tires are G rated, so within specs easily.



So, the statement that the Ram will be over on the rear axle is NOT true here. It MAY be with some trailers, but certainly not with mine.



He may, or may not, be over. Just depends on the axle placement on the trailer.



MP

Yes you can, and if you do, drive it slower/safer than you would with a lighter 5ver. Axle ratings are only part of the equation, and you wouldn't want the trailer pushing you when you need the control. I was towing my light boat with my wifes Tacoma to the scales to see if it was within the ratings, when in 5-10 MPH traffic on a street with construction, the cars came to a sudden stop and the trailer just kept pushing me into the car in front of me. That is one of the reasons why not to haul at max capacity, and if you do, take caution into consideration. BTW, that Tacoma was within the ratings per axle/tongue weights and GCVWR with my boat.

 

[Wertles]

Dcoffman, I believe you hit the nail on the head. For the average recreational camper, these units are a great value. My last 5er was a jayco eagle. According to the guide Grizzly has, it scored quite well. It obviously is not a Mobile Suites but did well. I never thought it was any better than any other unit out there that came out of the Indiana factories. The floor squeaked, the plastic piece holding the drawer slides broke often on just about every drawer, the carpet looked like it had been there 20 years after the first, water heater had issues starting on propane for the first 4 years, cheap plastic faucets and cheap st tires. None of these were major problems, just minor inconveniences. I got my monies worth out of that camper. When we started looking last year, one unit that fought my eye was a Cedar Creek made by Forest River. These have historically scored very low in Grizzly's book. However, this unit had many of the things that were described in another post as things to look for in a good unit. It had the right kind of sealant around the windows and such and came with real American LT tires and Dexter axles. It had nice ball bearing slides on each drawer and nice fixtures. I compared it to a similar Jayco and hands down it was a better built unit going by the guidelines given on this site but did not rate higher in the book. Just saying.

Not everyone needs a Mobile Suite quality unit. My house is the highest quality I can get along with the appliances within. These are used everyday and I need to rely on them. My camper is a toy. I do not live in it full time. I do not travel more than 2000 miles a year. I can fix just about everything that breaks down within reason.

Harvey and Grizzly give a great service to everyone on this site with their experience and wisdom. Everyone needs to be an educated consumer. You don't want to pay a premium price for an average unit. If you find an average unit, pay an average price. Everyone will go home happy. I paid an average price for mine and I am thrilled. Someday I will pay a premium price but that will be when I am spending 4 months a year living in it traveling all over the country.

 

[dcoffman]

Wertles, I hope you get to travel. I had the same plan in 2000 when I retired, a lot of family illness prevented it and now that we can fuel is way to high to allow it. When we went Alaska in "02 we had a "98 Prowler and lived in it 3. 5 months,it did a great job. Other than local campgrounds we go to Myrtle Beach in Sept for 20-30 days.

 

[HBarlow]

Dcoffman, I believe you hit the nail on the head. For the average recreational camper, these units are a great value. My last 5er was a jayco eagle. According to the guide Grizzly has, it scored quite well. It obviously is not a Mobile Suites but did well. I never thought it was any better than any other unit out there that came out of the Indiana factories. The floor squeaked, the plastic piece holding the drawer slides broke often on just about every drawer, the carpet looked like it had been there 20 years after the first, water heater had issues starting on propane for the first 4 years, cheap plastic faucets and cheap st tires. None of these were major problems, just minor inconveniences. I got my monies worth out of that camper. When we started looking last year, one unit that fought my eye was a Cedar Creek made by Forest River. These have historically scored very low in Grizzly's book. However, this unit had many of the things that were described in another post as things to look for in a good unit. It had the right kind of sealant around the windows and such and came with real American LT tires and Dexter axles. It had nice ball bearing slides on each drawer and nice fixtures. I compared it to a similar Jayco and hands down it was a better built unit going by the guidelines given on this site but did not rate higher in the book. Just saying.
Not everyone needs a Mobile Suite quality unit. My house is the highest quality I can get along with the appliances within. These are used everyday and I need to rely on them. My camper is a toy. I do not live in it full time. I do not travel more than 2000 miles a year. I can fix just about everything that breaks down within reason.
Harvey and Grizzly give a great service to everyone on this site with their experience and wisdom. Everyone needs to be an educated consumer. You don't want to pay a premium price for an average unit. If you find an average unit, pay an average price. Everyone will go home happy. I paid an average price for mine and I am thrilled. Someday I will pay a premium price but that will be when I am spending 4 months a year living in it traveling all over the country.

Your analysis makes perfect sense and should be read along with the other opinions expressed when someone inquires about an RV purchase.

There are many trailers that can provide good value for the weekend and summer vacation RVer IF he knows what he needs, and knows how to buy it at the right price.

My HitchHiker is too large and too heavy to be practical for the younger RV family with kids who use an RV like above but is ideal for all weather travel by an older couple like myself and my wife. I would not pull it to Alaska and would not pull it into many or even most rural state parks.

I have always thought Jayco's were decent products for the money if purchased at the right price and there are others.

I think the primary thing that Grizzly and I preach about is prospective buyers being fooled by the surface glitz and glitter that hides Lippert frames and cheap ChiComm running gear on a huge, heavy, and overpriced trailer a TDR member wants to hang on the back of an underrated truck.

The main theme in all discussions like this is being an INFORMED CONSUMER. Never let an RV salesman guide you! Their goal is a sales commission, the bigger the better. I have no argument with that but I look out for my interests first. Theirs comes last.

I never talk to RV salesmen except to allow them to waste their time while I look at products I have not seen during my initial entry in the search. Once I have seen and examined the products and after my internet research and talking to a few trusted friends I buy what I have decided on over the phone or internet at the price I am willing to pay.

 

[Wertles]

I've got a long way to go before I retire, close to 30 years or so and working like a dog so long trips are out of the question. I get about 9 days in the summer for a good trip with the kids and one or two more weekend trips. The rest of the time it is on a permanent site that is close enough to work so I can spend weekends there. That is why a lower quality unit works well for me. I have no plans on keeping any unit for more than 8 years or so. As my family changes, so does our need in campers. What we need now doesn't come in anything high quality nor would it make sense to pay that much money for one. I have 4 children and lots of education and retirement so save for so I can get that good unit then. I look at it this way, I would guess that no one on this forum would suggest to the average homeowner going to Snap On or Matco to buy all their tools. They are the best tools out there but a complete waste of money for the average guy who can buy Craftsman and be just as handy about the house, but for the mechanic who works on our trucks it is a necessity to own those. For some on this forum, they are professional RVers and my unit would not hold up to their lifestyle and use.

I also am of the opinion that the junk of today can not be compared to the junk of yesterday. If the last time you looks at a Forest River was 5 years ago, you might be surprised to see where they have gone since then. Don't get me wrong, they are still not going to compete with the Mobile Suites but they just might give you quite a few years of trouble free service.