Movement Brtween Pin Box and Camper Body

[RustyJC]

Not all Lippert frames are created equal. Some RV manufacturers will use stock or off-the-shelf Lippert frames - these are the ones that seem to give problems. Other higher-end manufacturers will design their frames and farm the construction out to Lippert under strict QC guidelines - DRV is one such manufacturer. I've owned DRV 5th wheels since 2004 and have never had a frame problem; in my 11 years of DRV ownership and frequenting the DRV owners' forum, I could probably count the number of frame problems I've seen reported on one hand.

DRV Mobile & Elite Suites frame

Rusty

 

[Killgore]

Yeow! Before coming to a conclusion on whether or not to trade, what brand, etc, etc. I can foresee some kinda' time spent on in-depth research. This decision will not be made in haste.

GAmes, your opinion? On forums where folks have had frame related issues (and, there are many), the Lippert frame folks have always dodged the bullet (unless it was a case of poor workmanship) by saying that their frames are made to the customer's specifications. If that in fact is the case, I would have to ask whether Keystone and Forest River are spec'ing their frames differently? Problems appear to have become more pronounced with the introduction of the notched frame that accommodates the full aerodynamic front-cap assembly. I would sure like to know the behind the scenes story on this if you know? I don't recall reading any posts about frame failures with the Forest River units.

- Ed

 

[Killgore]

While I was posting, Rusty answered part of my question. - Ed

 

[GAmes]

I took a look at the frame pictured on that link. It looks just like the frame in my Monaco in the pin box area. As you can see in the pictures of my trailer, there was nothing wrong with their welding, it was the metal that tore. There isn't any evidence of gussets in the DRV picture. So, if the frames are built to specs of the customers (manufacturers) are the metal specs different also? I doubt it. Frame failures, IMO, are hit & miss. Failures aren't reported by the manufacturers and only the really disgruntled owners post on line. Personally, I don't think there is much difference in the quality of Lippert frames between entry level units and high dollar units. That is why there is a Northwood parked in my yard.

 

[RUSSELL5000]

Ed,

You said, "Yeow! Before coming to a conclusion on whether or not to trade, what brand, etc, etc. I can foresee some kinda' time spent on in-depth research. This decision will not be made in haste."

HA! I have concluded that I want to fulltime when I retire in ten years; if I start researching now then I might be ready to get another rig when the time comes!!!

There is a whole lot more to this RV stuff than I ever imagined.

 

[RustyJC]

I took a look at the frame pictured on that link. It looks just like the frame in my Monaco in the pin box area. As you can see in the pictures of my trailer, there was nothing wrong with their welding, it was the metal that tore. There isn't any evidence of gussets in the DRV picture. So, if the frames are built to specs of the customers (manufacturers) are the metal specs different also? I doubt it. Frame failures, IMO, are hit & miss. Failures aren't reported by the manufacturers and only the really disgruntled owners post on line. Personally, I don't think there is much difference in the quality of Lippert frames between entry level units and high dollar units. That is why there is a Northwood parked in my yard.

I really can't influence your opinions and beliefs, but as I said, I've owned DRV 5th wheels since 2004 (DRV entered the marketplace in 2003), so I've been around the DRV owners' forum since almost Day 1. My first DRV was #1291 - they started at #1000, and I owned that 2004 Mobile Suites 36RE3 until May 2014.

I assure you, if there were frame failures or problems, they would be brought up in the owners' forum - DRV owners aren't known for being shy about airing out their complaints. So, why do some other Lippert frames fail and DRV frames do not? Obviously, there are design and/or material differences from the run-of-the-mill Lippert frame, especially given the weights and GVWRs of DRV units.

Rusty

 

[RUSSELL5000]

Guys, I am not a gearhead and a relative RV newby, but if seems clear to me that frames are different for different manufacturers even if all originate with Lippert. I can believe DRV has not had complaints - they brag about their 15" tall stacked triple stacked box tube frame and have nice picture on their website. I have not seen other manufacturers post pictures of frames ike that (don't mean they ain't there - I just haven't seen them).

I can readily believe that many manufacturers use similar frames that they specify to the minimum, and therefore many brands exhibit similar weaknesses.

It seems the trick is to identify the quality manufacturer who has good service - not many it seems.

 

[Killgore]

"It seems the trick is to identify the quality manufacturer who has good service..." Russell, it seems you have a knack for cutting to the chase. How do we do this?

- Ed

 

[GAmes]

Rusty, I don't have any doubts that the Mobile Suites frames is built extra tough, but to me it is a cut above "high end" and way more than the average consumer is prepared to spend for an RV. Besides $$$, "high end" is also "large size". There are no 27 ft single slide trailers (which is what I need) that fit the DRV profile. In other words, Lippert is synonymous with poor quality in the majority of trailers that are traveling the highway.

 

[GAmes]

"It seems the trick is to identify the quality manufacturer who has good service...

Exactly why I chose a Northwood. The cost was higher than a keystone or Forest River for the same size unit, and I have no local dealer support, but the benefits outweigh the downsides.

 

[RUSSELL5000]

Ed,

I wish I had a good answer to the question of how to pick out the quality manufacturer with good service. I have not done so well at buying things. I bought my truck because I was amazed at how comfortable the ride was, how accessible the engine compartment was, and the Cummins name. After I bought the truck I discovered the TDR. I bought a 2012 in March of 2013; I went to CMEP in June of 2013 and learned about all of the improvements that I could have purchased.

I bought a used 1995 Jayco TT - I really liked the trailer but my boys were outgrowing the bunks and the bathroom was too small for me - so I bought another Jayco. The old Jayco was better than the new one.

Should have done more thinking in each case. Oh well.


Here are my initial thoughts as far as RVs, as I am trying to think this through in preparation for full-timing.

(1) Generally, the highest end manufacturers are better - not always, but generally, and so it seems to me that it would be worthwhile to look for a three or four year-old high-end trailer from a high-end manufacturer than a new trailer from a lower-end manufacturer (new high-end trailers are out of my budget). This means lots of looking to identify, lots of very careful inspection, and being prepared to get right at fixing some things when purchased.

(2) Lots of research in how trailers are constructed.

(3) Factory visits to see how constructed.

(4) The general tone on the manufacturer forum and RV.net. Opinions swing widely, but the general observations come through. This is what convinced me to get rid of the ST rated tires for example - I figured there must be something to thousands of threads on ST tire blowouts (duh?).

My general game plan right now - sure open to insight from others.

 

[Killgore]

Russell, I think that there must be some publication or RV owners organization that doesn't take advertising money from the manufacturers that issues a comprehensive appraisal of the units being offered; something similar to Consumer Reports. I wish I knew where to look.

Thinking about GAmes and his post on Northwood: cost was higher - no local dealer support - but, the benefits outweigh the downsides.

I can follow that thinking, especially considering the magnitude of issues that we've touched on. Dealer support after the warranty period has expired is nil anyway. What's left translates into 'you get what you pay for'.

In my case, and probably this would be true with just about everyone else that has bought a camper; we've spent good money on something we thought would be relatively trouble free; we have assumed it was built with reasonable quality, serviceable components that would perform up to decent standards; and foremost, we assumed the manufacturer was building a reliable, safe camper that we could enjoy and trust in. The key word in all of that palaver is 'trust'. At this stage of the discussion I would venture to say that most owners having an unreconciled problem are in the process of losing trust in the manufacturer.

However, I still can't help believe that Forest River has recognized this and is attempting to improve their image by offering upgrades and replacement of questionable components as mentioned by Jim W. on his thread, "Praise for Forest River!". This is commendable and I am impressed.

- Ed

 

[RUSSELL5000]

Yes, it absolutely is a "Buyer Beware" market, and it seems to a greater extent than other products. I would think that a competitive advantage could be achieved by delivering an adequate product and good service at a somewhat higher price. Maybe tyhat is what Forest River is thinking.

No Northwood dealers in my area; only seen one used. Appears they are trying to distinguish themselves in that way.

I hope you can get something done on your trailer and still get some enjoyment out of it.

 

[Bill Stockard]

Yes, it absolutely is a "Buyer Beware" market, and it seems to a greater extent than other products. I would think that a competitive advantage could be achieved by delivering an adequate product and good service at a somewhat higher price.

Yep, that's what NuWa did for years with Hitchhiker 5th wheels, but sadly low price/low quality wins, and they are no longer in business. Excel 5th wheels, also manufactured in KS, are gone.

Bill

 

[RUSSELL5000]

Ed, I came across rv.org, which states that it is a consumers guide for rv stuff. Don't know, just found it.

Bill, weren't those high cost units?

 

[Bill Stockard]

Ed, I came across rv.org, which states that it is a consumers guide for rv stuff. Don't know, just found it.

Bill, weren't those high cost units?

Yes, they were higher cost than a lot of the junk from Elkhart and there's a reason... you get what you pay for. IIRC, TDR member "Grizzly" had a copy of the RV Consumer's Guide. It's been around for years and like Consumer's Reports it only a guide. It helps, but doesn't relieve the buyer from doing his own research. On many occasions, a buyer is better off spending the same or a little less buying a quality used RV that was properly maintained than buying a new RV that has many faults/weaknesses glossed over with glitz and eye candy to fool unsuspecting buyers.

Bill

 

[GAmes]

rv.org is funded by the same conglomerate that owns Camping World. I know from experience that moderators will delete posts that cast a bad light on products that Camping World sells.

My theory is the highest quality comes from the companies that have only one facility. Alpenlite (out of business), NuWa (RIP), New Horizons, Northwood. etc. The Forest River plants I haul out of the most are on the west coast Dallas, OR & Rialto, CA. I can attest that the quality out of Dallas has gone up quite a bit in the last 10 years, but I didn't even consider their product when we decided to scale down from our 32' triple slide. I've hauled several FR units out of IN also. They tend to be the more expensive models (Cedar Creek, Silverback) and they sure are heavy and glitzy. If I wanted another full time, all weather unit they wouldn't be on my list either.

 

[Killgore]

Well, the USAA adjuster just left after walking around the camper and taking notes. He noticed that the pin box wasn't centered in relation to the front-cap. This was the reason the front-cap had rubbed the pin box where it turns under as part of the overhang. "Hmmm, I don't like to see this vertical movement as evidenced by the paint missing on the pin box and the worn place on the front-cap".

As we walked further, I pointed out the deflection, slight bulge, on the right side that is about 2" wide and extends almost from top to bottom on the camper's side. It is located about four feet forward of the front axle, at the rear of the pass-through storage compartment. Is this related? "It sure could be."

"What should I tell my friends on TDR?"

"Tell them, to be continued..."

In the meantime, I am to make a service appointment to have the camper thoroughly inspected by Camping World, including the Lippert frame, pin box, bracing, etc. What if this is just another case of a product being built to 'industry standards'? "USAA is not against establishing a precedence. You are our customer, not them. And by the way, I wouldn't plan on any long trips until we get this resolved."

I have been their customer for fifty years this month. I really don't think I'm going to get hung out to dry on this deal. And so the saga continues.

- Ed

 

[Killgore]

GAmes, there is no conglomerate - it's all Marcus Lemonis. Great Scot! Look up his business profile; talk about impressive.

Yes, you're right though. A conflict of interest does exist between those who build and those who evaluate. Most of the in-depth write-ups are not in-depth at all, only centering on the 'eye candy', and discussing the same components that are standard in all camper brands. One dealership I visited several years back had six salesmen working the floor. Only one of them had ever owned a camper, and he was just working part-time. Help! What's wrong with this picture?

- Ed

 

[GAmes]

LOL, I'm remembering my shock from some years back when I arrived before a dealership opened, and so had a newly hired salesman. Not only had he not ever RVed, the dealership had not even taught him the basics of the units he was selling.

I've been a member of USAA since 1975, it never occurred to me to call them when I found the cracks in the frame. I hope it works for you.