My K&N will stay in. Thank you Blackstone Labs.

['956Wheel]

Ok Bro's,
Silicon is in all metal castings... especially cast aluminum (timing cover along with other components of the Cummins). Heat will "leach" this silicon out to be suspended in the oil. This is the reason the oil in an aluminum engine will dirty so rapidly and will often take on the smell of oxidation. The reason for the silicon content is to aid in the flow of the molten metal in the casting process, metalic sodium is used in the injection molding process ("mag" Aluminum wheels and such) this addition to the casting "recipe" causes the materials melting point to become lower thus "thinning" it's liquid state, this all but eliminates air pockets in todays high quality castings.

I may (did) offend some kn patriots as I repeatedly asked simply "why do you swear by these tests and go on and on about the parts per million of silicon" that these "no baseline" tests report. I am all for investigation and review of products but you must have a test that is reliable or it is useless.

Consider the red scenery of states like Utah, iron is what causes this "candy to the eye", green is copper... where do you drive and what is in you test results. This may sound extreme however you must take all facets of your enviorment, fuel, oil (brand, source) and yes even driving habits (towing, flying down a highway, chuggin on dirt. )

Take a look at metals, aluminum in particular, compare cast to others and you will see that leaching occurs very rapidly in the cast "sample" when compared to it's formed (sheet,bar,etc. ) counterpart. This can be seen with the naked eye. Do some TIG (heliarc) welding of cast aluminum (you use a high silicon rod) you will see the "make up" of the material right before you eyes.

Metalurgy is fasinating and does contain questions as well as answers. If I offend, sobeit, but one must have the facts before being able to make an educated decision.

Your onry Bro,
Mike

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9535hundred

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

STATLAND...

I would ASSUME that if oil analysis revealed high silicon content - with accompanying high iron content, and that short engine life resultedin such cases, while LOW silicon content with LOW iron content resulted in INCREASED engine life, it would pretty well "prove" to MOST folks there was a definite correlation between the 2.

Now, as to whether that silicon was "leached" out of available aluminum castings in a given engine, I suppose that would need to be factored in as well. BUT, to propose or assume that the GREATEST source of silicon in oil tests in our Cummins is coming from engine castings rather that DIRT does seem a stretch.

There is NO doubt in my mind that high levels of silicone WILL come from dirt ingested into the engine, and will assume unless shown otherwise, that high silicon content in our engines will ALSO be accompanied by higher than normal iron content. I will also assume that relative silicon percentages WILL be a good indication of DIRT ingestion, most presumably via the intake path into the cylinders - revealing the dirt filtration ability of the air filter, or perhaps other factors contributing to poor air filtration.

What I will NOT assume, is that higher than "normal" silicon content has NO relation, or NOT a pretty good yardstick to judge the cleanliness of the air (or fuel) supply to the engine.

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

 

[PRout]

How does the silicone from the air enter the oil?

Do the rings really allow it to pass? They sure dont allow much fuel to pass, and dont allow much oil to escape.

How about valve seals?

Not trying to argue or be a know-it-all. I sure don't know. Would love for someone that has some evidence, experience, or proof to post it here so that if the K&N was a clean filter, we could slap one in, check the oil, & be confident that we are adequately protected.

[This message has been edited by Shortshift (edited 02-09-2001). ]

 

[illflem]

Shortshift,you are right the rings keep most of the dirt out,it is burned and escapes with the exhaust,but not all of it. 20 ppm is the warning number when something is wrong,that is . 00005%,not very much. Can't remember the exact number but a diesel engine uses something like 10,000 gallons of air per gallon of fuel,just a little dust in each gallon of air translates into a pile after a while. The oil analysis labs have spent years figureing just how much silcon is allowable before coming up with their numbers.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

It would SEEM reasonable to expect that a PERCENTAGE of ANYTHING entering and being combusted/consumed in the engine cylinder WILL migrate into the crankcase - including the fuel itself, the various chemical compounds in that fuel - including any fuel additives placed there by the owner or refiner - AND, the air and incidentals brought in along WITH that air. It also follows, that over long periods of time, oil analysis has been refined to the point that labs can reasonably accurately identify and specify WHAT percentage is "normal", and what is excessive.

As far as claimed efficiency of various filters is concerned, most of the popular ones place printed specifications right on their packaging. Paper OEM filters fall into the 97% filtration ability (as I recall), the K&N claims 96% - at any rate, it's a 1% difference. This means that for every 100 dirt particles of a given (small!) size, OEM filters will pass 3 particles, K&N will pass 4. What is NOT shown in any tests *I* have seen, is what DIFFERENCE in wear rates can be demonstrated to occur due to that 1% difference. IF that 1% equates to a corresponding 1% reduction in engine life, and we accept that a given Cummins diesel is good for 400,000 miles, the use of the K&N air filter will reduce engine life by 4,000 miles. If you change your OEM filter every year, or 15,000 miles at a cost of $20, you will have spent about $533 for replacement filters over the service life of that engine. By contrast, using the same service interval for the K&N - at an approximate cost-per-cleaning/recharging of $5 (at least that's what it costs me... ), you would pay $75, a difference of $458, not including the cost of the K&N filter itself. Is it worth saving $458 or so, if the downside is only getting 396,000 miles out of your engine instead of 400,000?

YOU DECIDE - and let ME do the SAME!

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 02-09-2001). ]

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Just went and checked my last oil analysis. Silicone at 8ppm and iron at 34ppm. I still watch these debates closely, but all in all I am not that thrilled with my K&N. I don't feel I am doing any harm, but it isn't even noticeable to be taking the chance. I'll run it a bit longer and see what becomes of this ongoing debate.

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John McEachern
Fort St John B. C. Canada
1998 12v, 4X4, QC, auto w/tc switch, air, tilt, cruise, 3. 55 gears, TST #6, Isspro boost/pyro/transmission gauges, BD VB&TC, CC industries headache rack and rails, JVC KD-SX949 Cd player, forest green, Brigestone Dueler M/T's 285/75/16, Eagle 16x8 rims, K&N airfilter.

 

[illflem]

Gary,thanks for doing the math,I knew there must be some other advantages to the K&N besides being freer flowing. I have a stock paper filter i use while my K&N is drying after servicing,going back to the paper filter full time isn't even an option for me,there is a noticeable negitive difference in performance with the OEM filter.

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95' 25004X4,AT,Driftwood,Banks Stinger,Warn fender flairs and running boards(work truck)
95 3500,5 speed 3:54,BD E-brake,Driftwood,Banks&Psycotty,34,000 GCVW apple and tractor hauler(works harder truck)

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

ILLFLEM - yer welcome!

SWAMP DONKEY - how many miles on your oil when that analysis was done? If it was less than 4 or 5 thousand miles, the silicon and iron seems a bit on the high side, unless you drive in very dusty conditions...

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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

 

['956Wheel]

Gary kj6q, My intent by posting what I know of metalurgy is simply to give "light" to a different view NOT to raise anybodies blood pressure. If I upset you or anybody I apologize.

I would like the facts on these tiny ppm's of silicon in oil and there effects on our Cummins... nobody says, do they know? Going from 5 to 10 PPM's is a change of . 0005% is this significant? Most posts are showing less than a 5 ppm change!

Keep on truck'in #ad


Mike

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9535hundred

 

[illflem]

Stat,a friend of mine got a silicon reading on his '01 PSD's first oil analysis of 422 ppm,the lab said check the air filter. He did, the OEM filter had a tear in the paper. I felt sorry for him,I'm sure it shortened his engine life. I've read of cases in my oil analysis book of silicon readings of over 1000ppm due to faulty air cleaners and of readings up to 5000ppm due to leaking seals on a normal diesel engine oil change interval. They say that very high silicon is usually the result of a bad seal,moderately high levels are from bad air cleaners. This indicates to me that most of dirt that may enter though the intake is discharged and kept out of the engine by the rings,but it still seems like the dirt could do damage to the cylinder on the top side of the rings without entering the oil.

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Gary,

I change my oil every 10,000 km's which is about every 6,000 miles. I do travel about 10 miles a day on gravel and that one would be near the end of summer. I think that should be within specs I hope. #ad

 

['956Wheel]

Hey Apple Guy, The case that you spoke (wrote) of is extreme, I think we will agree on that. What caused the tear? My guess is from too much suction through a clogged filter... something must give. What is the construction of the kn... what would give? An oiled filter will cause dirt to adhere, if kn is a "gauze like" media what would give?

Folks sure get emotional about a air filter, shame.

My thoughts are this is a never ending subject as there are so many variables and what is good for your conditions may not be good for the next guys. Too bad it gets personal... would there be a food fight at the meet? Potato salad launches better than say... apple sauce! #ad
#ad
:rolleyes) Talk about personal!

Later Bro

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9535hundred

 

[RichB59]

I spent some time while in the USAF as a jet engine mech. 8 years to be exact. I was involved the soap program for about an 18 month period,Thank God . I was worn out turning wrenches. One of the keys to good oil analysis was integrity of the drawing of the sample. I think think the a trend of readings is the the way to go. One reading is misleading. We kept a history of each engine and were able to predict failure by a trend of readings. Establish a base and go from there. Sounds familiar.

Rich 59 going on 60

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20yr Mopar Parts Manager,"June of 2000" 2001 quad cab,2wd,auto,354 LSD rear axle,Raven Magnum 8' cap. Mag Hitech trans pan. Isspro gauges Apillar mount. Amsoil air filter.

 

[illflem]

Stat,the K&N as well as the paper filter have wire mesh that should keep the entire media from getting sucked into the intake with mucho boost on a badly clogged filter. My buddy felt that the tear in his filter was a defect in the element. He dissected the filter and the paper around the rip was noticeablely thinner.

Mike,have you seen the apple guy commercials,what do you think?I've never seen one,but don't like them. The WA State Apple Commission charges me,and every other grower, 20¢ per 40# box of apples for those ads. I produce 80-100,000 boxes a year,you figure it out.

 

['956Wheel]

Apple Guy, I could see why those commercials would NOT be popular in the apple growing biz, lota bucks. As far as the commercials, they got one where the "apple guy" gets along side of a family in a station wagon, driver is almost sleeping, apple guy gives him an apple POW! he's O. K. Power of sugar.

I guess I relate to this... years ago I had a '64 Power Wagon, a buddy and I loaded up the bikes and stuff after work headed for the desert... . no dinner... yeah I almost nodded off, those markers woke me up. Steve said D**N you eat an apple #ad
what! I did... it worked #ad
#ad


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9535hundred

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I guess I just don't understand. Low silicon -- doesn't that mean the dirt has not worn out the rings and cylinder bores YET? And, by the time silicon gets high, isn't it too late?

Meanwhile, you paid extra for the K&N, have to clean it periodically, and then pay more for oil analysis. How does this benefit you in $ spent vs. stock air filters?
#ad
no flames intended, just puzzled #ad

 

[illflem]

Joe,I think it's a good idea to get your oil analyzed at least every 20 k no matter what kind of filter you're running. It can alert you to a problem before it costs loads of money to fix or leaves you stranded somewhere. I doubt if my friend with the torn PSD air filter would have found it as soon as he did without an oil test.

 

[JJW_ND]

I have tested almost 30 samples of engine oil alone in my 96. I have seen a K&N let Silicon by (went to 54ppm). Lab flagged it to resample but not dump oil.

My take on any air filter is to leave it alone and NEVER open the box unless the filter minder has moved or you want to change the filter. I recently openned mine after it had 70K on the filter (never openned). Prior samples were never over 15ppm but were climbing 2 - 4ppm over the last three samples. Filter had a thick layer of "sludge" & bugs. You could pick chunks off. Visual inspection would have had this filter chuck months ago. Filter Minder had never moved.

With a stock paper filter, I can move the filter finder half way in one full boost run.

I could have cleaned and reused the filter (Amsoil) but for the cost I tossed and put in a new one. When I was running the K&N I Openned the box everytime I did a oil service. (WHY????). I know better now!

Leave your filter alone!

BTW!!! Silicon sealant will cause high Si. readings. Every Transmission sample I have got back has had a high Silicon reading from the sealant on the PTO plate when changeing fluid.

jjw
ND

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Joseph sez:

"I guess I just don't understand. Low silicon -- doesn't that mean the dirt has not worn out the rings and cylinder bores YET?"

NO, not necessarily - past analysis history undoubtedly proves that a certain percentage of silicon WILL get past the rings on a STEADY basis over the ENTIRE lifetime of the engine, NOT just when the engine is old - the AMOUNT of that percentage will determine at WHAT RATE actual wear is likely to take place - HIGH silicon rates on a NEW engine are a warning sign and wake-up call that SOMETHING is wrong, and needs attention if premature wear is to be avoided, THAT is the PRIMARY REASON oil analysis is DONE, to be aware of problems BEFORE it's too late - and high silicon readings IS one of those warning signs!


"And, by the time silicon gets high, isn't it too late?"

NOT unless it is permitted to CONTINUE uncorrected - and THAT is WHY regular oil analysis is a good thing, REGARDLESS of what brand filters or oil you select.


"Meanwhile, you paid extra for the K&N,"

In MY case, about the same as 2 OEM filters - hardly a budget breaker...


"have to clean it periodically,"

C'mon now, that's a stretch - YOU have to change your OEM filter TOO! FACT is, other than unusually dusty conditions, the K&N will go at least 2-3 times the mileage between service as an OEM filter will, due to FAR better dirt-retention ability.


"and then pay more for oil analysis.

ANOTHER stretch - oil analysis WITH the K&N costs no more than for one with an OEM filter - and analysis is NOT *because of* the K&N, but just because analysis is a smart thing to do REGARDLESS of WHAT brand/type filter you select. Have you missed some of the posts up above where PAPER OEM filters were damaged or poorly installed, resulting in elevated silicon readings? HOW would owners of those engines KNOWN about their problem, or its seriousness WITHOUT analysis?

"How does this benefit you in $ spent vs. stock air filters?"

How does *what* "benefit us", the filter or the analysis? I've already posted the dollar savings up above - the oil analysis is NOT required regardless of what type filter you select - just a good idea with EITHER. You SEEM to be suggesting that oil analysis is REQUIRED *because* of the K&N filter - and that's just plain WRONG! Oil analysis is just a measuring tool to help track potential engine problems and unusual wear - it's been used in commercial service for YEARS as a preventive maintenance item, and normally pays for itself in costly problems detected and avoided.

"no flames intended, just puzzled"

Sorry - but *I* seriously doubt your disclaimer - I think you dislike the K&N, and are suggesting its use is unwise - that's your privilege - for YOU - as are your questions. But SOME of the stuff you say up above reveals your personal view and slant on the K&N that is unjustified. I have pointed out that OEM filters DO claim the ability to filter about 1% BETTER than the K&N, but I ALSO point out there has been no claim or tests *I* am aware of that prove exactly WHAT additional wear MIGHT result from the increased passage of dirt - is it also 1%? *I* sure don't know - but IF that lowered filtration DOES merely reduce my engine life by about 4000 miles (3 months or so in normal service over the life of the engine), is it worth nearly $500 to me to "buy back" that paltry 4000 miles by using an OEM filter instead of the K&N?

MY answer is NO - but it IS a personal choice, and I respect YOUR choice in the matter, and can only ask you to do the same fo me!

As far as folks "getting upset" on issues like this - it's pretty much the same as a Dodge owner being ridiculed by a Ford owner for their buying choice - when you attack my product, you indirectly attack ME! Which is why I pretty much discourage and stay away from brand-bashing, whether it's vehicles OR aftermarket stuff - it's VERY non-productive and devisive.

MY "disclaimer":

I'm NOT trying to offend ANYONE in this discussion, but AM trying to present the case concerning the use of K&N filters as *I* see and understand it, and as it applies to ME! If any reader with actual proven facts - NOT heresay or friend-of-a-friend anecdotal stuff, that demonstrates that use of a K&N over the LIFE of an engine will cause SERIOUS reduction in engine life, compared to an OEM filter, *I* would sure like to see it... Speculation and criticism without supporting FACTS are pretty worthless...


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http://community. webshots.com/user/davison71 Early '91 250, 727 AT, 307 rear... Banks Stinger exhaust, intercooler... US Gear OD... MORE than a match for every new PS Ford encountered so far...

[This message has been edited by Gary - KJ6Q (edited 02-10-2001). ]

 

[PRout]

When I look through the K&N into the light and see light coming through all those small holes, thats enough to tell me that its not going in my motor.

Hold a cheapo paper filter up to the same light, and see muuucho difference.

These motors flow way too much air to be playing ticky-tack with an aircleaner.

You can spend the money on the lab work all you want, and it may be interesting to know you dont have unusual wear, etc. , but even if you do see high amounts of iron, chromium, whatever, what can you do about it? Tear it down because of a lab analysis? Sell it maybe, but it doesnt say much about the K&N compared to using PLAIN OL COMMON SENSE.

Its like a moot point. Its like some people are wanting to feel like they have more flow, they are needing sooooo bad to run a K&N.

Joe already told us there is no hp increase with one. Why need so bad to have one? Turbo noise? Not a priority.

Added: By the way, I'm not upset at anyone, and dont intend this to sound that way. Also, yes everyone has the right to disagree and want to run anything they want. This sure as hell is more fun (and helpful)than debating about politics!!

[This message has been edited by Shortshift (edited 02-10-2001). ]