Need AC Advice

[Bob Beauchaine]

After looking at the standard and compact fans on page 5 of the above referenced sheet my kit has the compact fan drive.

Bob

 

[Philip]

Thanks Bob

Ok Robert lets hear the second person with the Horton. Is your fan compact or standard.

 

[Philip]

I did some more digging on line. The Horton number for the fan clutch is 996018.

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

The P/Ns are listed in my booklet are as follows:

EC450 Fan Clutch 4863968

8 Blade Fan 4897946AA

Bob

PS I've got a listing, with P/Ns for every part on the original part in the original kit including the wiring harness.

 

[Philip]

This link has a lot of Horton fan clutch and other Horton items. Scroll down to 996018 and see what it says.

http://www.fanclutch.com/manufactur...Horton&PProd_Type=1&Product_Type=Fan Clutches

The number you listed isn't shown. That looks like a Dodge number to me. That site doesn't show any Horton numbers in the 48xxx range.

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

Philip

Nice to have a source for a replacement drive unit if I ever need one. Also nice to know that the numbers are probably Dodge. This is the only thread I have ever seen for help with the Horton setup that gets down to the nitty-gritty with what I see as a great "cool" setup.

Bob

 

[DVolk]

Im not convinced you need a Horton fan to make the AC run If that was the case remove the fan and run electrics , if you have a good working clutch fan it should work fine .

 

[Philip]

Im not convinced you need a Horton fan to make the AC run If that was the case remove the fan and run electrics , if you have a good working clutch fan it should work fine .

Many people have tried electric fans on Dodge diesels of all years. Everyone has found the same problem. If your driving style is running around empty all the time. Electrics work fine. If you do any towing. All your going to do is melt the engine down. Two electrics is all that you could fit when removing the factory fan. Those two electrics only push about half the amount of air as the factory fan. I do tow at times. A few times I have been in the 24k GVCW range. So electrics are out of the question.

Now about our fan clutchs. Remember they need hot flowing air to engage them. At low speeds the A/C is throwing a lot of heat and high head pressures. But it is not enough to engage the fan clutch that Dodge installed. Due to lack of air flow from said low speeds or stopped. Is a replacement after market stocker type better? Your guess is as good as mine. If you check all the parts stores listing. There is only one fan clutch listed.

Remember after market parts do not get built to the same quality spec's as OEM. Horton is a well known name in the heavy truck industry. They are a OEM supplier. So it leaves me and others at a point of deciding. Do I buy a new replacement fan clutch from Dodge? Then take a chance of having the same problem of A/C high head pressures due to low air flow threw the condenser. Do I try a dime store replacement with unknown quality and still might have the same problem due to no air flow to engage the clutch. Do I buy a known quality electric fan clutch replacement from a well established company in the heavy truck industry. Then just do some simple wiring to make it work the way it needs to. Come on with A/C high head pressure and engage with high engine temps. I'll go with the Horton and use the high capacity fan Dodge installed.

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

Philip you've hit the nail right on the head.

Until you have run at freeway speeds towing 8000 lbs in 100 degree weather where you can see just how well the Horton works. That is why I bought mine. The A/C performance was a welcome addition. I can run Cabbage hill towing with the A/C on and still see only 180 degree engine temp with egts under 1000 degrees.

Bob

 

[Philip]

The only times I have seen my stock fan come on full were 95+ days. Loaded around the same amount on a 5% 2 mile grade in MO on I44. I was running the auto at that time. So I know it was dumping all sorts of heat into the engine. The fan stayed on for about 30 seconds after topping the grade. I hit the top at the speed limit to.

BTW that hill is the only time my fan has ever kicked in full. Three times loaded going up it. Empty I have never had it come on. Around here in the flat lands. I have never had it come on, even at 24K GVCW in 90 degree temps.

Your pushing a little more power than me Bob so I bet your fan gets used more towing. Mine is dyno proven at 185HP with all my mods. :-laf:-laf "Yea right" so much for dyno numbers.

 

[Bob Beauchaine]

Cabbage Hill in eastern Oregon not only goes from the desert floor but also snakes its way to the top. I can easily tow at 65mph except for a couple of switch backs. I could not get my egts above 950 even when towing. I was trying to get my Snow W/M stage 2 analog to come on by rpms only - no luck. I turn my Horton Fan on about a mile before I hit Cabbage Hill to keep numbers in my comfort range.

Based on what you've posted it would seem as if you have a a well above average balance on my air pump theory - air in (add fuel) air out. I believe that is the basic operation of a Diesel. Once you add something such as a new turbo you have to address other areas to get the full capability of that turbo. Based on my own setup egts and coolant temps I feel that I am very close and my next step would to move more air - better turbo. Since I have opened up my intake for better breathing my boost is down to about 32 psi - before I could see 38 psi.

BTW I just put the basics in my sig. because that is all I was allowed to post. Easily the sum of all the little things easily accounts for an additional 15% of my total RWHP dyno numbers.

Bob

 

[DVolk]

There must be some bad fan clutchs out there as i have never had a issue ever and thats when pulling a stock trailer that is about 5,000 emty then loaded with cows that weigh at least a 1,000 each on rare ocasion ive had to kick the ac off because of radaitor temps but thats only because i think my timing is a littel advanced too much after the pump bolts backed out on me and i just guesed of were it need to be at , but it runs good so i called it doone . I had a horton on a few big rigs they work great but whats the point if you cant find them any place ? Then there is the Frito Lay trucks run only with a electric fan , im not shure about the rare models that were the 5th wheel set up

 

[RSchwarzli]

What can I say Robert. You gave me a good number for that Horton clutch. So I got lucky and found a spec sheet for it. :-laf

Now I noticed one thing going threw that spec sheet. They show two clutches with the same number. Is yours the standard or compact model??

Well that is a good question now isnt it?

After looking at the standard and compact fans on page 5 of the above referenced sheet my kit has the compact fan drive.

Bob

Hmmmm. If yours is compact.... Just checked. Yes. Also compact. I believe the crew cab was too.

Thanks Bob

Ok Robert lets hear the second person with the Horton. Is your fan compact or standard.

Uhhh, that one. LOL

#ad

Im not convinced you need a Horton fan to make the AC run If that was the case remove the fan and run electrics , if you have a good working clutch fan it should work fine .

Yeah I did not spend 500 hours for cold AC. LOL When you get on the interstate towing 12,000 lbs cross country in 100 F and high humidity weather, at 75+ mph, that is why.

Philip you've hit the nail right on the head.

Until you have run at freeway speeds towing 8000 lbs in 100 degree weather where you can see just how well the Horton works. That is why I bought mine. The A/C performance was a welcome addition. I can run Cabbage hill towing with the A/C on and still see only 180 degree engine temp with egts under 1000 degrees.

Bob

Only 8000? LOL :-laf And really? A hill made of cabbage? Doesn't sound that bad..... :-laf

Yeah, my temps are about the same. Engine was 274/720 at wheels on dyno. Then I added the Super HX40. Gained about 4 psi boost.

 

[Philip]

Robert that is the compact model. The standard has the fan mounting bolts on the side your pic is made.

There must be some bad fan clutchs out there as i have never had a issue ever and thats when pulling a stock trailer that is about 5,000 emty then loaded with cows that weigh at least a 1,000 each on rare ocasion ive had to kick the ac off because of radaitor temps but thats only because i think my timing is a littel advanced too much after the pump bolts backed out on me and i just guesed of were it need to be at , but it runs good so i called it doone . I had a horton on a few big rigs they work great but whats the point if you cant find them any place ? Then there is the Frito Lay trucks run only with a electric fan , im not shure about the rare models that were the 5th wheel set up

Before I answer this. I have one question. Has your truck been converted to 134????

 

[DVolk]

My A/C has not been changed or needed a recharge yet . Renember if you are certified and have a card you can buy R 12 its just not cheap also if you knew a person in anouther country they have there once back 14 years ago i found R12 at a parts house in Denver that had pounders on the self if i had the cash i would have bought them all since my dad had his card

 

[DVolk]

If these fans are the cats meow then some needs to reproduce them as i wouldnt know were to find one at id probally run one on my crew cab build but were to get it may be its a project for Mysteryman ?????????

 

[Philip]

Yours hasn't been converted. Ok R12 gives you a lot more room for low air flow. If your charge is just a little amount low. R12 will not go into high head pressures. Now 134 even with the charge being low will hit high head pressures. It will do this in a very short time without air flow across the condenser. On a 90 degree day with no air flow the pressures will spike from 350 to over 500 in two minutes or less. Most of the time its the lower side on that time span.

Now for the fan part of this. Your under the impression these fans are like the fans used in older auto's. It speeds the fan up when it sees hotter air flowing past it. Well its not in this case. These fan clutches are on/off. They don't ramp up. They just free wheel till the air flow temps hit the lock in set point. Then its solid lockup. Towing out on the road. This works very well. Very little parasitic power lose. Dodge wouldn't have customer complaints from a noisy fan spinning. Even spinning at a less than engine RPM. These fans would be noisy. The CFM rating I have heard on these fans is 7,000 CFM+.

I would prefer an add on electric. With the very limited space behind our grilles. I am not cutting up a new NOS grille assy to make one fit. The Horton is a better option for my truck.

The reason I didn't go back to R12 on my rebuild. If I have A/C problems on the road finding R12 might be impossible. With 134 anyplace can repair and recharge the system.

 

[DVolk]

I know the main reason other than what the EPA want you to beleive the reason why R12 was discontinued was because Duponts patent ran out makeing avalible to any one to produce . On a R134 A conversion if the temps spike during high heat maybe the thing to do is is charge the system on a very hot day ? Has any one tried the freeze zone replacement ? you mention a loud fan may be mine was swaped out on my 92 when its locked it hums like a jet engine . The only question on the hortans is were to find the set up at ? If its a hope and prayer then other options have to be figured out what to use ???

 

[Philip]

Any place that deals in heavy truck parts can get a Horton. We know its a compact version. I listed the Horton number in a earlier post. I am pretty sure the number Bob listed is Dodge. I'll run that number threw their system when I go pickup my beater car from being repaired. The part is on national back order. So it might be a little while.

The first time we charged my system it was one can down from full charge. It still went to high head pressures with no air flow. There was around a 20 degree drop in temps coming out of the vents. Then we run out of time. I went back a few days later to finish the charge. That day we taped the gages to the windshield and charged it with air flow threw the condenser. When the truck went below 15 MPH. The head pressures started going up, not very fast at that speed. Once you hit 5 MPH or less. BANG massive spike in head pressure.

My fan sounds like a semi fan when it kicks on. The other three 1st gens I have been in when the fan kicked on sounded the same. Two of those three 1st gens only had the fan come on once as long as I was around them. Both of them were on that same hill in MO on I44. :-laf The third truck had a coolant leak we hadn't noticed. When the fan kicked in we pulled over and found it. Between all three of those other 1st gens. I racked up around 100k mostly towing on them in a 15 year spread with a friend. I have put 120K on my truck with 40 to 50k towing. I want my A/C fully operational. I don't like getting beat from a window being down on a long run. Plus that is hard on stero speakers being turned up enough to hear with a window or two down. :-laf

 

[DVolk]

Here is anouther question why isnt there a problem with the gen 2 trucks and so on ? maybe a person needs to use the peices out of a newer truck to completely retrofit the system to 134 also when theses systems have been charged with 134 and what not was the system charged with a actual system that pulls a vacumme if not im shure thats the issue , if my dad was still around hed have the answer being a 30 year radaitor and automotive a/c man