Archived Need advice for getting camgear off cam...

[MBarnea]

Hi I have been getting my butt kicked by the kdp problem. I have it down to just needing to get the cam gear seperated from the cam. I am not pulling the cam if I can help it at all. Problem is I am having trouble finding a sufficient puller to seperate them. I have read that snap-on offers some good pullers and cummins has a job specific tool but I haven't been able to find much info on either. Anyone have any ideas? I have tried 2 different ones from autozone with no success. Thanks. Mike

 

[Bob4x4]

You will need a name brand high quality puller to get it done,then your next issue will be reinstalling it after replacing the housing. Using a toaster oven to heat the gear evenly will work if you have it near the truck so it wont cool before you get it in place. Using that method you have to get it right the first time. once it is on the cam it will quickly cool and not slide.

 

[RACE427]

Snap On

Have you looked on Snap On's web site for the puller you need? Try Snap-on: Hand Tools, Power Tools, Tool Boxes, Automotive Diagnostics and Shop Equipment once you have the part number you can order it directly from Snap On or ask the dealer on his truck if he has it in stock. OTC Tools also has a huge assortment of pullers, check their web site also.



Hope this helps

 

[MBarnea]

I looked at snap-ons website. They have a multitude of pullers ranging from a couple hundred bucks to thousands. I was hoping someone that had done the job would be able to recommend a specific one so I don't end up pissin into the wind.

 

[EDankievitch]

Why would you not want to pull the Cam????

 

[MBarnea]

because it is extra work.

 

[Piers]

Yes, it is extra work, but unless you are setup properly it'll end being extra work that you will have wished you had done in the first place. The tools to hold the lifters in place are easy to make. 1/2" dowel & some rubber bands is all you need. once you cut the dowel into pieces, just champher the edge lightly & use a hacksaw blade and put a slice into the center, the depth of the blade. That'll help the dowel go in easy & hold, once you lightly tap it into place, pull the lifters up, two at a time, then use the rubber band to hold the ends of the dowel towards each other, so they stay up & out of your way. You will need to pull the lift pump back out an inch or so, to clear the cam as it comes out.

 

[MBarnea]

Why would I wish I had done it? It would also mean I have to readjust the valves and deal with trying to work under the part of the firewall that covers the back of the engine. From what I understand pulling the cam adds about 6 hours extra work to the job. Unless I get some new springs... which might be a thought.

 

[GAmes]

How many hours are you going to spend finding a puller that works (it appears you have used a few hours already with pullers that didn't work) and possibly spending R & R the gear if it doesn't go on right the first time. When I had to have my gear cover gasket replaced Micheal at Hot Rod Diesels didn't even consider pulling the gear and he's a pro. Piers is a pro as well, you should take his advice.

 

[PToombs]

I saw one that the local Cummins dealer changed the timing case on. They cheated and pulled the gear. It didn't go on all the way and soon ate the cam retainer, then walked out to the timing cover and ate that. They called my company because the machine was making an awful squealing sound.

Better to take longer to do it right instead of having the truck go down far away because you saved 4-6 hours.

 

[MBarnea]

Any recommendations where to a get 60lb springs? Should I just go down to Cummins? I figure if I'm that far in there anyway I might as well do those too.

I was doing it this way because it is apparently what Cummins does.

 

[PToombs]

I got my 60lb springs from PDR. Price was reasonable too.



I've had bad experiences with the local Cummins dealer, personally, and thru work. The parts guy there is an azz. He's too full of his own importance.

If you don't have a part number, don't even bother going. He'll give you a bunch of crap, when he knows exactly what you are talking about and the part number off the top of his head. But he still tries to make you feel stupid, instead of being helpful. I don't know how the techs are, but these are the guys that did the aforementioned timing case.



I do know that there are excellent Cummins dealers out there. We just don't have one here.

 

[MBarnea]

Called Cummins dealer, seemed pretty helpful. Knew exactly what I was looking for/wanting with the valve springs. When I asked how much the job specific tool was for pulling the gear in the truck, he spent a good 5 minutes hunting down a price and asking a tech for advice. Unfortunately they would have to order the springs and/or the tool. I know the parts-guy syndrome you are talking about though, I can't blame you for not going to them.

BTW he said I would be looking at about $500 for the tool. Ouch. The cam will be coming out before I spend that kind of coin for a one-time use tool.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I would not try to remove and replace the cam gear with the cam in the engine. If the cam goes into the engine a bit too far, it will push out the cup plug at the rear into the bell housing area, making for a big oil leak and a loose part to deal with. If you don't heat the gear a lot, it will not slide into place on the cam nose. If you heat it over 350 deg. F. the webs between the inner hub and outer ring with the teeth will crack. It is work to pull the cam, but necessary. Grind a chamfer on the ends of 1/2" x 12" wooden dowels, cut a slit about 1/2" deep with a hacksaw with the grain of the wood. Drive them into the tops of the lifters by tapping with a hammer, and retain them with wooden clothes pins. make sure they are held snugly so the lifters can't fall out. After you get them up and pull the cam (there is a retainer held with two 13 mm head bolts behind the cam gear), replace the cam with a 30" length of 2" exhaust pipe so if a lifter falls, it can't go anywhere.

 

[MBarnea]

Sounds like fun. Any tips on dealing with #5 & #6?

 

[PToombs]

Pull the plastic in the wiper area, there are 2 plugs in there for removing the pushrods up thru. Other than that, it sucks! Sorry.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

You don't need to pull the plastic cover, just the rubbber caps in the cowl. Those holes are included so you have access to pull the head bolts and pushrods up into the wiper arm area and then back down at an angle to remove them.

 

[PToombs]

Sorry Joe! I've never worked on a diesel later than a 1st gen. I knew about the plugs, but thought you had to remove a cover to access them.

 

[GCroyle]

My experience is limited to the one cam/timing case/KDP repair we did on my '97. I didn't pull the gear, I pulled the cam.



The advice given so far is spot on based on my one time repair.



The only advice I'd like to add involves handling the cam in and out. I made up a pipe flange and pipe extension to bolt on to the web of the gear, the purpose was to extend the front length of the cam to create a lever to help ease it out and it really helped me ease it in, it gets real heavy and difficult to lift it in on those last couple of races. I put a picture up on 12V with the cam extension.



Good luck.

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I forgot to mention the extension (thanks, Gary). I made one in 2001 when I started camshaft development. It is a 2. 5 foot length of pipe with a nut welded to one end. a piece of 1/2x13 stud, heavy steel plate shaped to fit behind one of the windows in the cam gear, threaded. Heavy, large washer between the nut and the cam gear. The washer and plate "sandwich" the cam gear and give the length needed for leverage. By the way, there is a cam bearing in the block at #1, but the other journals in the block are bare iron. you want to pull the cam straight so you don't nick anything. also, if you are not at TDC, a connecting rod can get in the way of pulling the cam. Pulling the lift pump out about 1/2 inch is enough; Be careful if you fully remove the lift pump that you don't pull the drive rod out of the pump; it is retained pretty well with an o-ring seal. Usually the lift pump gasket to bracket and bracket to block don't tear and can be reused. I hold the pump out with a piece of wood and the flexing of the fuel lines hold it in place.