2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission NEED HELP! Brake problem driving me nuts

[AlFischer]

My 2000 RWD truck has developed a strange brake pull problem. When the brakes are cold it does not pull. Stops straight like it should.

The first time I noticed this was going east on 80 into Nevada from Calif. Long downhill grade and pulling the travel trailer. I had done moderate braking to keep the speed down to reasonable and noticed a gradual pull to the left. Got worse as we continued downhill. I didn't feel it in the wheel and suspected the trailer brakes so when getting home I went through the trailer brakes brakes and found all OK.

Did a lot of research and finally noticed that it had nothing to do with the trailer. The failure happens only when the brakes get warm (not HOT) with or without the trailer. I don't often do hard braking and always slow down a bit when towing.

So, I took all advice from this site and did the following:

1. New stainless over Kevlar lines front and rear.
2. Changed the fluid and bled thoroughly. (Valvoline Dot3-4)
3. New front rotors, calipers and pads. Calipers from NAPA, Eclipse which are supposed to be fine.
4. New rear calipers. (made sure sliders we properly lubed and calipers are free to travel) Rotors looked new and no runnout.
5. swapped rear pads from left to right as they were almost new and showed no wear.
6. Went to a good frame shop and had alignment checked. Ball joints looked good and toe needed a small adjustment. I watched him and he seemed knowledgeable.
7. Re-bled brakes again.

Truck stills pulls left when the brakes get warm. Never violently, just feels like the truck is shifting towards the on-coming traffic.

So where do I go now???? (other than the nut house!)

 

[VolsFan]

Have you alternated the tires and is there irregular wear in any of them? Tires inflated to proper psi/tire out of balance? Hub assemblies tight? I had a similar problem in my old truck and went through the brake system and ultimately ended up getting tires re-balanced and it took care of my pulling problem. You say RWD, assuming thats 2wd, if 4wd, check track bar.

 

[VolsFan]

Meant rotate, not alternate*, not sure what I was thinking

 

[ESwartzer]

Have you checked your front wheel bearings?

 

[fest3er]

So where do I go now???? (other than the nut house!)

Check tie rod ends and suspension bushings. If something's worn, it could change steering geometry, evidenced by a pull.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Check tie rod ends and suspension bushings. If something's worn, it could change steering geometry, evidenced by a pull.

After all you've done, I think you'll find the answer in the suspension... . the control arm bushings. If they are giving, it allows the axle to shift rearward ever so slightly, perhaps just on the driver side, perhaps in just one arm, which moves the driver tire back, making it steer to the left ever so slightly... ...

 

[GSchlegel]

Just another thought from personel experiance. My '96' duelly pulls to the left, not bad, and the problem is the seal on the right rear weeps and decreases the braking from the right rear. Therefore the right rear brakes harder and the truck kind of pivots to the left. I had it replaced years ago and that solved the problem for a while. Its doing it again. I haven't taken the time to get it fixed yet, so occassionally i'll jack that side up, spray some brake klean inside the drum to soak everything as I rotate the wheels and that helps for a while.

 

[AlFischer]

Thanks for all the suggestions.
The pull is not severe, but makes me uncomfortable with oncoming traffic in the adjacent lane!

The tires have been rotated.

When I changed the calipers (front and rear) I saw no contamination. Rear pads barely worn sinch changing a year ago.

The alignment was checked, but not sure how to check the bushings. Exactly where are the control arm bushings? I have little knowlege of suspensions. Always just went to a "pro".
What should I look for (and where)?

What I find strange it this pull only shows up when the brakes get warm from brakeing more than normal. Worse is going downhill while towing my 28' 7000 lb trailer and maintaining speed.
I normally apply the brakes short periods and release for a while and then re-apply. Never just ride them. I can make it happen without the trailer. I just takes longer. If the brakes are cold no pull.

 

[HHhuntitall]

The control arms are the four link arms connecting your front axle to your truck. There is a replaceable bushing in each end of all four arms. It's extremely difficult to test, as the weight of the truck sitting on the axle makes it hard to move. I usually have someone help me, and drive the truck while I watch. Just a 1/4" travel will cause a lot of problems. While slowly rolling, brake it to a stop quickly. You should be able to see the tire move in the wheel well. Also, you can ease out on the clutch with your foot on the brake, looking for movement. I've seen some that need it at 100k, and others that are fine at 250k... . it all depends on your driving habits, how you use your truck, how much you drive in 4x4, and the quality of the inserts you go from the factory... .

 

[AEdelheit]

I would try re bleeding the front right brake again and then spray everything down on all brakes with brake parts cleaner

 

[fest3er]

The control arms are the four link arms connecting your front axle to your truck. ...

On 4WD, there are two arms (links) on each side that connect the axle to the chassis through two bushings each. A 2WD is different, but conceptually similar. Suspension bushings connect the two wishbones/a-frames to the chassis, with two bushings each. (To be pedantic, many cars and small pseudo-trucks have MacPherson struts with only a single lower control arm; the other pivot point is at the top of the strut. )



It isn't easy to test the bushings. If you strapped a surveillance camera in the wheel well or under the body aimed at the bushings, you might see motion while driving. Generally, you just have to accept that suspension bushings are usually worn after about 100k miles, and they're usually worn out at 100k miles on a 4WD. When nothing else, not even cracked frame mounts, explains steering wander and other looseness, the bushings are usually the culprit.



But don't forget that problems in the rear can also cause steering issues. A loose ubolt or a worn rear bushing can cause the vehicle to turn unexpectedly while braking, as can axle lube leaking onto the brakes. Old-time, non-synthetic gear oil could act as a 'cutting fluid', greatly increase friction and cause a pull to that side; it happened on my old F150. Top synthetics like Amsoil have very good extreme pressure additives that will reduce--or eliminate--friction and cause a pull to the other side; this happened on my '98 Dodge.



I had a 66 Gutless 30 years ago. 100k miles: at 120-135MPH, the front end would oscillate up and down, left and right. Up to the left, down, up to the right, down, repeat. 140k miles: at 90MPH, it would barely start up and down before immediately going into a left/right slide: the front tires would actually slide side-to-side. Needless to say, that 400ci, 4bbl, dual exhaust car never went fast again. The bushings were well beyond 'worn out'.

 

[AlFischer]

Thanks for the explanation. I will get a buddy to give me a hand this weekend and try to see if there is any play in the contrpl arm bushings.

I have bled the brakes several times since I changed the fluid. Never mad a change.

Front end oscillating at 120-135 mph? Annoying, to say the least. My Ram has never seen that speed!

 

[HHhuntitall]

Well, I read fest3er's post and realized I overlooked the truck specs... . It's a 2wd... . But it still points to the ball joints or contral arm bushings... . fester gives a good explanation, though, and certainly straightened out where I was leading you astray... . One good thing about TDR!!

 

[AlFischer]

Is there a good source for the bushings that would be of better quality than from Dodge?

I'm willing to change them just in hopes that they might fix it.
The problem is starting to worry me because I'm not comfortable if I had to do a panic stop while towing!

How can the control arm bushings cause pull ONLY when the brakes get warmed up?
It points to brakes in my mind but I have changed everything except the ABS system.

Is there a way to temporarily disable the ABS?

 

[HHhuntitall]

That is a good question. I'm not sure how it can do it warm, but not cold..... That does point to a brake problem, but since you've replaced all the components, and swapped sides with them, it makes me wonder what else it could be... . Have you tried swapping rotor and calipers with the passenger side? The new caliper didn't help, though, so what's left?!??! The ABS can be unplugged next to the hydraboost, with the CELs on the dash illuminating. The primary ABS connector is there on the fenderwell, next to the brake master clyinder. The little round thing that looks like an electric motor?? That's what it is, and it runs the ABS... . Unplug it and it's disabled. I don't think that's where you will find the problem, though... .



As a thought, do you back into your parking place at night? I'm thinking of what could set the front suspension in a specific position, that would be unset the first time you use the brakes... ...

 

[AlFischer]

All 4 calipers have been replaced. Front rotors replaced. Rear PADS swapped side to side. Rear rotors show hardly visible wear. maybe . 020 and no runout.

Calipers are side specific. Different part numbers.

I drive forward into parking and back out.
Truck is not driven daily. Sometimes twice a month. Then it tends to be a trip and towing.

I will try disconnecting the ABS and warming the brakes up. I'm grasping at straws now!

 

[HHhuntitall]

AH, of course, calipers are side specific... I said it, but didn't think it through. I was thinking more of the rotors and pads, though..... Very odd that you've done that much work to it, and it's still doing it..... Would you mind describing how you bled the brake system?



And again, it could be the bushings in the arms..... But I would think if they were that bad, they'd be rattling while running down rough roads.....

 

[AlFischer]

Bleeding...
1. opened farthest caliper bleed screw and allowed to gravity feed until the new fluid appeared.
2. Repeated to next closer caliper. Then next closer until all calipers bled only new fluid.

3. Finally installed 'Speed Bleeders' and bled each caliper from farthest to closest. No air came out.
4. Drove a couple days and repeated. No air came out.

5. Several weeks later re-bled. No air came out.

I think it is bled completely. Pedal firm. Holding brakes on it never goes down.

I am just about bled dry too! I will get under it this weekend. Right now I am re-plumbing our well. Contractor did not properly glue several PVC joints. GRRRR!

 

[HHhuntitall]

Bleeding...

I think it is bled completely. Pedal firm. Holding brakes on it never goes down. !

Well, that would do it, I'd think... . I can understand your frustration... . It drives me up the wall when I can't fix something, ESPECIALLY for someone that's paying me!!

I am just about bled dry too! I will get under it this weekend. Right now I am re-plumbing our well. Contractor did not properly glue several PVC joints. GRRRR!

That sucks!! I get so mad I just do it myself... . then I never have time to do other things... . Luckily, I've got a good company, two brothers, that do MOST of my well service, and they do a good job, just slow to get there, as they're extremely busy. Good thing, too, as I've got quite a few cows that depend on well water for ALL their water needs... .



I've got one right now that's right at 400', and they didn't install a check valve in the bottom above the pump..... Now, I've got to pull it, and I'm not sure how, but I sure as heck ain't gonna hire that same bunch!!! I've got an old gin pole truck, I may extend the poles and use it... . The company I use doesn't come this far East, and I don't have a windmill tower over it, so I can't use a winch in my truck... .

 

[mwilson]

Bleeding...

1. opened farthest caliper bleed screw and allowed to gravity feed until the new fluid appeared.

2. Repeated to next closer caliper. Then next closer until all calipers bled only new fluid.



3. Finally installed 'Speed Bleeders' and bled each caliper from farthest to closest. No air came out.

4. Drove a couple days and repeated. No air came out.



5. Several weeks later re-bled. No air came out.



I think it is bled completely. Pedal firm. Holding brakes on it never goes down.



I am just about bled dry too! I will get under it this weekend. Right now I am re-plumbing our well. Contractor did not properly glue several PVC joints. GRRRR!

I wonder if you may have air trapped in the ABS unit itself??



Mike.