Need Help Convincing a Friend to Buy a Cummins over a Ford

[Wayne M.]

OK, I partially stand corrected about the Oil pressure gauge. But the Dodge definetly gives more info than the Ford- the ford needle won't move in any case! I don't believe for a minute that the cummins or the chrysler computer dosen't really know the true oil pressure of the engine. It has to be seen on the DRB or scan tool just like most vehicles.

In any case, I wonder what the man chose for a truck?

 

[Eventer]

Just in case some of you were wondering, my friend has not purchased a vehicle yet, but he is now a member of TDR (rhoffman) if that gives you any hints as to how he is leaning.



Thanks for all of your inputs.

 

[Matt400]

I don't believe for a minute that the cummins or the chrysler computer dosen't really know the true oil pressure of the engine.

Why? There is no "variable" pressure sensing devise screwed into the engine so how could it?

 

[Wayne M.]

I have just recently realized that there is a whole debacle on this subject (somehow I missed it). I cannot get to an appropriate wiring diagram for my truck (a CD pruchase will have to wait until finances allow) but I do have a diagram for a ford super duty and it shows a direct circuit from the dash gauge right to a contact switch, which is bogus! Just put a light there already!

The closest I come to for a Dodge is a '98 Ram Van FSM. This van uses the same basic cluster and technology as a similar year CTD would. I have found out that the instrument cluster is connected to the vehicle via a computer bus and obvoiusly there is a computer in the cluster translating the bus language, so there would be no direct link between the gauge and sender which is fine. The sender on the gas magnum V8-6 is a multi wire variable resistance unit giving a variable signal to the PCM. I am going to find out what the PCM does with this signal, and Cummins HAS to use something similar.

This technology is not new. My '86 Chrysler LeBaron turbo had a digital dash and I backed it up with a VDO water temp gauge because I was skeptical 10 years ago. One sender controlled the computer and the computer controlled the gauge, cooling fan, and engine management. the gauge and dash would agree in progression until about 210* which was about 50% of the bar graph, the next bar = 240* and then the fan went on, which is a big jump for one bar. The gauge and dash always were in sync, like clockwork and I wasn't looking at the VDO after a while.

 

[Matt400]

Cummins HAS to use something similar.

They don't,

They use a switch that closes @ 6psi.

0-5 psi and the gauge reads 0. At 6psi the ECM sees there is pressure but doesn't know how much, it doesn't care either because it only uses that signal as a "go ahead" to then vary the dash needle based on RPM and coolant temp to show the driver a value they would expect to see at a given RPM and coolant temp.



I ran across this while fooling the coolant temp circuit for another project of mine I was doing and found higher "simulated" temps drove the pressure gauge lower as the ECM thought the oil must be thinner and should report it that way. Posting my findings here on TDR I was quickly educated on the circuit and then also studied the circuit using the OEM service manual and found. . sure enough, a 6 psi switch.

 

[Jefff929]

one of the threads that I found was TDR thread They look good and work for the application you are talking about.

 

[jwduke]

So I guess you have never seen a Cat, Detroit Diesel, Freightliner, International, etc?? They all have 8's. I don't see any significant advantage to either a 6 or an 8, they both have advantages and disadvantages. The v8, with more valve surface area has the potential to make more HP, whereas the 6 with its longer stroke is possibly suited for more low end TQ.



To each his own. I have both, and like my duramax as much as the cummins.

Cat, Cummins, Freightliner (Detroit Diesel?), & International, have NOT had a V8 diesel in over the road trucks for 20+ years.



The V8, Cat used in over the road trucks in the late '70's was hard on heads & fuel, but made great power, and probably hands down, ran the best.



The V8 that Cummins used in over the road trucks (VT902?/Most drivers called them 9-0-nothings) was hard on heads & fuel, and power was marginal, at the least.



The V8 Freightliner (Detroit Diesel) used was discontinued when the Series 60 came out. The old 8V-71/318, was a high rpm revin, oil leaking pos. They were the smallest of the V8 diesel engines. If you ever lugged them they would scatter parts from here to kingdom come.



The V8 International used in over the road trucks, was a mirror image of the 8V-71 Detroit. International doesn't build HD, over the road truck engines anymore.



Your modern over the road diesel engines from Cat (3406E), Cummins (ISX), Detroit Diesel (Series 60), Mercedes-Benz (MBE4000), Mack, & Volvo are ALL of the I-6 design. They are lighter than a V8, and make more HP, on LESS fuel.

 

[Donn]

Why do you care???

 

[67guzzler]

Need Help Convincing a Friend to Buy a Cummins over a Ford

This may be naive of me but if the power, simplicity, engineering, layout, organization, design, durability, history, Cummins support and value of the Dodge CTD vs. the Powerstroke / Duramax isn't evident to others, they shouldn't buy the Dodge. Sometimes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

 

[hasselbach]

Cat, Cummins, Freightliner (Detroit Diesel?), & International, have NOT had a V8 diesel in over the road trucks for 20+ years.



The V8, Cat used in over the road trucks in the late '70's was hard on heads & fuel, but made great power, and probably hands down, ran the best.



The V8 that Cummins used in over the road trucks (VT902?/Most drivers called them 9-0-nothings) was hard on heads & fuel, and power was marginal, at the least.



The V8 Freightliner (Detroit Diesel) used was discontinued when the Series 60 came out. The old 8V-71/318, was a high rpm revin, oil leaking pos. They were the smallest of the V8 diesel engines. If you ever lugged them they would scatter parts from here to kingdom come.



The V8 International used in over the road trucks, was a mirror image of the 8V-71 Detroit. International doesn't build HD, over the road truck engines anymore.



Your modern over the road diesel engines from Cat (3406E), Cummins (ISX), Detroit Diesel (Series 60), Mercedes-Benz (MBE4000), Mack, & Volvo are ALL of the I-6 design. They are lighter than a V8, and make more HP, on LESS fuel.

Duke, your post is so fraught with inaccuracies it would take too much time to sort through it all. In any event, having more cylinders typically leads to a more efficient engine, cleaner burning (for the same displacement due to smaller cylinders to fire, and 8 instead of 6 burn events), higher potential horse power for 8 vs. 6 due to increased valve area (ie flow), and less vibration due to the V design over the I design.



The 6 is cheaper to manufacture (less moving parts) and possibly easier to work on for major overhauls while still installed in the truck (wet sleeve construction you can do the complete overhaul without having to pull the engine).



The Detroit Diesel was a rocket, not sure what you are talking about. This 2 stroke diesel was fast and powerful, but was extremely dirty for an emissions stand point.



Cat still has many V8's, and if you look at large industrial equipment or in the Yacht arena, most all are V8 designs.



Funny no one points out that Cummins has a new V8 design in testing right now, very smooth in design, and very clean. I think it was touched on in a recent TDR article.

 

[JCastilleja]

Just a thought... ... . Never try to convince a friend to buy anything. If he follows your convincing, and buys a Lemon, your a bad guy forever and maybe loose a friend. And Lemons exist in everything.



WM-300

Outstanding advice. Perfectly said.

 

[TFucili]

Duke, your post is so fraught with inaccuracies it would take too much time to sort through it all. In any event, having more cylinders typically leads to a more efficient engine, cleaner burning (for the same displacement due to smaller cylinders to fire, and 8 instead of 6 burn events), higher potential horse power for 8 vs. 6 due to increased valve area (ie flow), and less vibration due to the V design over the I design.



The 6 is cheaper to manufacture (less moving parts) and possibly easier to work on for major overhauls while still installed in the truck (wet sleeve construction you can do the complete overhaul without having to pull the engine).



The Detroit Diesel was a rocket, not sure what you are talking about. This 2 stroke diesel was fast and powerful, but was extremely dirty for an emissions stand point.



Cat still has many V8's, and if you look at large industrial equipment or in the Yacht arena, most all are V8 designs.



Funny no one points out that Cummins has a new V8 design in testing right now, very smooth in design, and very clean. I think it was touched on in a recent TDR article.

I can't disagree with you, BUT engines like the Cat 1604 and 3208, IH 9. 0, DD8. 2 were all regarded as throw away engines and were never regarded as long lasting work-horses. As for the two cycle Detroits, they somehow worked in any configuration.

 

[jhellmers]

At the risk of subjecting myself to a bashing, I too, am thinking about trading my '02 3500 CC DRW for a '06 F-350 PSD CC Dually. My current '02 Dodge truck had a bunch of problems when it was new, including being on lift pump #7 right now (@45k,) and performance issues. Yes - performance issues. I know, hard to believe!



If I had "test pulled" my loaded hauler (about 8k,) before I bought this truck, I would have never bought it. This truck couldn't even go up a moderate hill by itself without coming out of overdrive and being all the way to the floor doing about 48 mph at the crest of the hill. Don't think it could pull a overweight person off a tricycle.

Pulling a loaded hauler, forget it; I would have to hit the bottom of the hill at about 80 to be doing 50 at the top wide open.

On the way back from a complete going-over and reflash by Cummins in Syracuse (who found nothing wrong, by the way,) I was passed, (pulling my empty 3500#hauler,) by a pos rusted-out toyota celica @ 45mph-uphill. The truck was flat-out; couldn't go any faster if it had to. Quite honestly, I was so mad, I was hoping it would scatter right there on Interstate 81 so I could get a new motor.



Researched the New York lemon law (had been in shop >7 times in 4 months for same problems,) but thought about trying 1 more thing before starting the procedure. Bought a Edge EZ from "Rip", installed it, and end of story. Brought truck back to life and it now pulls like it probably should have when new. Been driving is ever since.



As far as the dealer was concerned, if it prevented me from returning the truck, he is ok with it being on the truck. In all honestly, he is one of the best dealers I have ever dealt with.



However, recently, we, as a family have "outgrown" the truck and want the space and capability of a crew-cab, 1-ton, 8-ft box dually. Dodge only has the SRW, 6 ft. box "Mega-Cab" as I understand it. While I still think that the Cummins motor is great, but I personally feel, styling wise and "creature comfort" wise, Dodge has fallen behind. Not too sure about the trans. as well, and have several friends w/ '04's that have had u-joint issues, ball joints wearing out prematurely, and non-functional posi issues, all with "questionable" coverage comments by their dealer (not mine, by the way. )



It will take a "leap of faith" to move to a PSD, but I have already been through that, somewhat painfully I might add, with this truck.



So if the person wants to "shop" around-let him. Support him in whatever his decision is and if he has issues (hopefully not), don't say "I told you so," just support him and be a friend. We are all subject to the consequences of our own decisions and, good or bad, must deal with them as responsible adults in charge of our own fate.



Just my honest comment and opinion... Sorry in advance if I have annoyed or angered anyone... .

 

[Chugiak]

This may be naive of me but if the power, simplicity, engineering, layout, organization, design, durability, history, Cummins support and value of the Dodge CTD vs. the Powerstroke / Duramax isn't evident to others, they shouldn't buy the Dodge. Sometimes you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

JGann, around here if we lead a horse to water and he refuses to drink, we shoot him 'cause he's too stoopid to live! :-laf



Cheers'



Chugiak

 

[67guzzler]

Ok! Ok! I promise. I'll drink! #ad

 

[nitrox2595]

Ford's are like A-Holes, everyone's got one and they all stinK!!!!

 

[hasselbach]

Ford's are like A-Holes, everyone's got one and they all stinK!!!!

That's a real educated response...



All the Fords I owned worked great, performed perfect, and were very well made.

 

[LFalconer]

Let him get what he wants..

All, I had a 04 Cummins LWB 2500 4WD. Pulled great, too bad they couldn't fix the vibes... However, after owning it I found it had [compared to the Ford 05 6. 0L I drive today the following:



1. Crappy paint, chips like it is razor thin.



2. Cheap interior, substandard material.



3. Lightwieght Frame, prone to cracks.



I let DC buy it back, went and bought a Ford 05 [the second one.



Let me tell you, the 05 Fords are good - Ford had issues with the 6. 0 in 03 and some in 04. Good to go in 05. The 6. 0 and Torqshift really work well towing.



Ford sells 2x the diesel pickups that DC or the General does.



Dodge needs a special ordered "Box off " version to mount a service body.



And, when I go to cattle shows, or auctions - 90% of the trucks pulling and working are Fords.



Buy what you want - but don't get the website phobia on FOrd, out of 13 friends that own Fords and drive them [03,04,05] 1 has had a transmission, and 1 has had 2 sensors - both 03's.



L

 

[hasselbach]

All, I had a 04 Cummins LWB 2500 4WD. Pulled great, too bad they couldn't fix the vibes... However, after owning it I found it had [compared to the Ford 05 6. 0L I drive today the following:



1. Crappy paint, chips like it is razor thin.



2. Cheap interior, substandard material.



3. Lightwieght Frame, prone to cracks.



I let DC buy it back, went and bought a Ford 05 [the second one.



Let me tell you, the 05 Fords are good - Ford had issues with the 6. 0 in 03 and some in 04. Good to go in 05. The 6. 0 and Torqshift really work well towing.



Ford sells 2x the diesel pickups that DC or the General does.



Dodge needs a special ordered "Box off " version to mount a service body.



And, when I go to cattle shows, or auctions - 90% of the trucks pulling and working are Fords.



Buy what you want - but don't get the website phobia on FOrd, out of 13 friends that own Fords and drive them [03,04,05] 1 has had a transmission, and 1 has had 2 sensors - both 03's.



L

I can feel the heat start to rise now with many die-hards on this site. .

Falconer, I agree 100% with your points. The dodge paint is crap, the interior is like sitting on a picnic bench, and when I go to various horse events, you are right, its mostly Fords. The real reason I got my dodge was due to the overall shortness of the quad cab for a daily driver. The Cummins really had nothing to do with it.

 

[Matt400]

Ford sells 2x the diesel pickups that DC or the General does.

Thats laying on a little heavy IMO. I work in the service & repair industry and see more Ford & GM troubles than Dodge.

Also you have to be careful when comparing different years because of changes. Many think a 3rd gen is a 3rd gen and after going from an 03 to an 05 I am finding a huge difference for the better.