Need Help Convincing a Friend to Buy a Cummins over a Ford

[Heavyweight]

3. Lightwieght Frame, prone to cracks

Did yours crack? If not, why did you post that?



The dodge has thinner sheet metal then the Ford. If you thought paper was thin... .

 

[hasselbach]

Thats laying on a little heavy IMO. I work in the service & repair industry and see more Ford & GM troubles than Dodge.

Also you have to be careful when comparing different years because of changes. Many think a 3rd gen is a 3rd gen and after going from an 03 to an 05 I am finding a huge difference for the better.

I thought Ford had more like 3 times the market on trucks compared to dodge?



Maybe Matt sees more Ford and GM troubles because there are more Fords and GM's on the road?

 

[Matt400]

Maybe Matt sees more Ford and GM troubles because there are more Fords and GM's on the road?

Maybe, but it sure seems like there are far more 3rd gens in our area than both of the others.

 

[klenger]

I'll jump in. LFalconer certainly has a right to his opinions, and I fully respect that and don't question his comments, but I would like to express my opinion in response:



All, I had a 04 Cummins LWB 2500 4WD. Pulled great, too bad they couldn't fix the vibes... However, after owning it I found it had [compared to the Ford 05 6. 0L I drive today the following:



1. Crappy paint, chips like it is razor thin.



I haven't compared mine to anything else, but in general, paint is OK. It is my understanding that one of the reasons that new vehicle paint is not as good as the old stuff is because of EPA issues.



2. Cheap interior, substandard material.



Again, I have not compared mine to anything else, but I have no complaints.



3. Lightwieght Frame, prone to cracks.



I've yet to hear of any first-hand reports of any frame issues, and it's been discussed here a bunch.



I let DC buy it back, went and bought a Ford 05 [the second one.



Let me tell you, the 05 Fords are good - Ford had issues with the 6. 0 in 03 and some in 04. Good to go in 05. The 6. 0 and Torqshift really work well towing.



I have a six speed, so I don't care about the auto transmission wars.



Ford sells 2x the diesel pickups that DC or the General does.



I only need one truck. I don't care how many Ford sells to anyone else.



Dodge needs a special ordered "Box off " version to mount a service body.



I don't need it, but I do agree that it should be offered.



And, when I go to cattle shows, or auctions - 90% of the trucks pulling and working are Fords.



Again, I don't care what anyone else drives.

 

[hasselbach]

Maybe, but it sure seems like there are far more 3rd gens in our area than both of the others.

that wouldn't be because you live directly across the street from a dodge dealership does it?

 

[hasselbach]

1. Crappy paint, chips like it is razor thin. [/i]



I haven't compared mine to anything else, but in general, paint is OK. It is my understanding that one of the reasons that new vehicle paint is not as good as the old stuff is because of EPA issues.



.

I used to paint cars on the side about 15 years ago, and yes, the EPA has made paint today mouthwash of what it was years ago, but the paint companies have come out with some pretty durable, triple stage paints today. Too bad dodge is using however 2 stage paints. Part of the problem I've seen is poor curing and adhesion. The rocker panels chip just looking at them, and the paint is very flat compared to others. I still say the imports have much better paint, both in quality and durability.

 

[Matt400]

that wouldn't be because you live directly across the street from a dodge dealership does it?

:-laf :-laf There isn't even a Dodge dealer in our county!

 

[JL penner]

I second your opinion Klenger! Who gives a rats behind as to what everybody else is driving. But if I did care... ... ..... looking around my area, Dodges are the truck of choice, distantly followed by Ford and GM. I see all three generation of dodge/cummins on a regular basis in my neck of the woods.

 

[Matt400]

Ford sells 2x the diesel pickups that DC or the General does.

Originally I read that as 2x in quality, if I am wrong and what you meant was 2x in volume I don't know what that would mean, the majority of consumers buy on visual appeal. If one year more Mustangs sold than Camero's does that mean it was a better car that year?

 

[PGiannetto]

The '05 Ford's still have problems with there motors. My brother has an 05 & it is being Lemoned right now by Ford. Motor keeps surging. I just traded my '04 Ford on a 05 Dodge. My motor was surging, but they fixed it. Mine was also spooing coolant out when I traded it. It ran hard and fast. The tow/haul mode was a dream. But why do they still have the pilot injection turned off after 2 years of pproduction? It was very noisy. It also took 40 acres to turn it around. Not the Dodge! When I hooked up a heavy load to the Ford the *** end was almost on the ground. Not the Dodge! The Ford has alot more leg room than my new Dodge, but I don't sit in the back. The kids do. I am noticing on my Dodge it does seem to scratch pretty easy.

 

[hasselbach]

These posts always kill me. . Somebody always has a friend or brother that owns a chevy or a ford that is either being lemoned, or repaired. .



'They say that if you don't have family or friends that owns a broken down chevy or ford, then you don't have any family or friends. . '

 

[FloridaEd]

I've been a Ford man since my 1966 Ford F-100 I-6 pickup. Then an '81 E-150, a '91 E-250, a 94 E-150, a '97 PSD CC F-250, and my current '00 F-250 PSD (currently at 143,000 miles). And those are just my personally owned vehicles... not including cars.



Tell him this:



1. The EPA is going to screw with the diesel engines in pickup trucks in 2007 and again in 2010... changing (stricter, of course) the diesel emissions allowed. That means you should not buy another new diesel pickup until 2012... . that gives the manfufacturers a couple of years to fix all the problems with the EPA required changes to the equipment. NOBODY... . Not Navistar, not Cummins, not GM, can put out a significant change in an engine without unforseen problems that will pop up. So, buy a 2006 model and plan on keeping it until the 2012 models come out... cause most the stuff in between will have a lot of problems.



2. I'm as close to a Ford man as I can get without the Blue Oval tattoed on my old wrinkled butt. I drove a new '06 Ford F-350 CC LWB this week because I just wanted to make sure I wasn't making a mistake by switching to Dodge. IMHO, the 6. 0 liter engine will never give the trouble free mileage that the old Ford 7. 3 or the Cummins 5. 9 will give. The Ford would be fine if it's the wife's car and it doesn't have to work..... but that small-pistoned 6. 0 liter Ford I drove would hit 3500 RPM with about half of the pedal down... . high-revving diesels are not working diesels.



3. I prefer the Ford cab... . it's a true crewcab. I just have no faith in the 6. 0 liter engine lasting and pulling like I want. I have no doubts that the Cummins will last longer than I will..... if I don't get a case of the new-truck crazies down the road... .



4. In-line engines are better pulling engines than V-engines. Plus, IMHO, they are just better engines. I have extensive history with the Dodge Slant 6 and Ford in-line 300 C. I. D engines and they are superior to V-engines, I believe.



I joined the Florida Farm Bureau day before yesterday. Twenty-eight days from now, I'll be at Autoway Dodge in Clearwater, FL, and will order me a 2006 Cummins engine, and take the Dodge that comes with it.



This may well be the last tow vehicle I ever buy. And it will be a Cummins with a Dodge wrapped around it.



Florida ED



(P. S. Don't consider a GM product... they have aluminum heads!)

 

[hasselbach]

1. why is the inline 6 superior? why is cummins coming out with a 5. 6 liter v-8? I'd like some facts for once rather than what feels good to support my ego on this issue. . I've heard nonsense that the 6 is smoother (its not), more durable (has nothing to do with I-6 vs. V-8), and is better for a diesel. Provide proof, not emotion.

2. there have been no problems with aluminum heads on the duramax, other than in your own head ( )

 

[67guzzler]

This doesn't look like a safe discussion but I'll risk making a "contribution. " Let me preface by saying that this is all OPINION and you know what that means... .



I think an I-6 is superior to me based upon what's important to me. I've always believed that an I-6 design is going to provide more torque for a given displacement. There are exceptions, but this is a general belief of mine. In the Cummins 5. 9 -- there are far fewer moving parts than a V-8 diesel thus the conventional wisdom (right or wrong) that it's more durable. One thing the 5. 9 I-6 has going for it -- the foundation has been around for ages and the core of the design is fairly simple. As for why Cummins is coming out with a 5. 6 liter V-8 -- My guess is that they want a smoother engine and they want a broader RPM powerband. I think that the I-6 is quite raw by comparision to the modern V-8 diesels. But I like the 5. 9 I-6 for what it is -- not for what it isn't. I guess if I had it in an Excursion or a Suburban then I might feel differently. I hope we're not seeing the end of an era.

 

[MFalkinham]

1. why is the inline 6 superior? why is cummins coming out with a 5. 6 liter v-8?

My opinion as to why Cummins is looking at the V-8 is that it has nothing to do with reliability or power, but rather physical size. It is becoming difficult to shoehorn the 5. 9 inline 6 into modern light trucks due to having shorter engine bays and more aerodynamic design issues. Back in the late 80's with the 1st Gen there were less challenges thanks to the huge engine bay. Having V-style engines will give Cummins a broader market for future auto/light-truck sales.

 

[NStates]

I am on my third Cummins which I use for heavy towing. My rigs have always been well over the recommended GVW. I would like to take him for a ride in the Rockies where there are real mountains and demonstrate how it pulls a load compaired to the Fords that are huffing and puffing. My real reason for purchasing the first Cummins was my experience with a fleet of 25 Busses and making the switch to several with the Cummins Engine. There is no comparison when you have accurate costs to compare. Fuel mileage, repairs and etc. The power stroke will start to nickle and dime you at about 150,000 miles. The in line six has many advantages over the V8.



It is interesting how many Ford owners would like to have a Cummins but can not make the change just because it says Dodge. By the way, my 2005 Dodge has a better ride and over all quality that the 2005 Ford.



Norm

 

[FloridaEd]

Regarding the I-6 VS V-8 engines:



The I-6 has less inherent vibration than a V-8 because all metal part movements are either circular or in one plane. Ditto for an in-line 8 (old Buicks, for example) and for the "Boxer" engines of Porsche, Subaru, and BMW motorcyles (I owned a 1978 Subaru with 4 cyl boxer engine. Numerous times, I would hit the starter when the engine was already running becaue it was so smooth and quiet you could not tell it was running. ) . V-8 engines have metal engine parts that are circular and move in two planes. For that reason, many of the early Japanese cars used counter-balancing weights to get their V-6 engines (and some other models, I believe) to run without little or no vibration. Vibration or the lack thereof is just one of the things that can lessen or prolong engine life.



I-6 engines generally have a longer stroke than V-8 engines. This lets the engine develop torque at a lower RPM than a V-8. (look at the torque curves for a Ford PSD and the Cummins CTD and this will jump out at you. V-8 engines devleop torque and horsepower at higher RPM's. RPM's equate to wear over the long term. IMHO, lower RPM's at a given speed generally equate to long life.



One of the problems with getting to be as old as I am is that many things I learned to be facts when I was young have been changed by technology. My greatest experience with I-6 engines were Ford 300 C. I. D. 's and Dodge 225 C. I. D. slant sixes. My greatest experience with V-8's was with Ford 302's. The Ford 300 I-6 had more torque over a wider (and lower) engine speed range than the 302 V-8. But that 302 V-8 would wind up very fast to get to the rated horsepower (the 289 C. I. D. Ford would wind up even faster). That's why many of the early stockers used 289 Fords.



So, it appears that the V-8 has a place in cars and non-working trucks, IMHO. The I-6 (Lord, I wish I could still get an I-8) engines are lower RPM working engines and they have a place in working trucks.



One of the things I saw 20 years ago at a dealership in West Palm Beach was a salesman put a glass of water on the hood of an I-6 and a V-8 Ford 1/2 ton work truck and the water in the V-8 shook a lot more than the I-6. That convinced me that in-line engines were smoother. Would be interesting to compare a PSD and a CTD today... .



All that being said, I've been driving Ford PSD V-8's and 302 V-8's for the last 24 years for my PERSONAL vehicles. That's been due to the fact that the I-6's, when they were still in production, were always in bottom-of-the-line work trucks and I wanted a nicer vehicle for my personal use. Obviously, I've put a ton of miles on V-8's with no problems over the years... ... due to obsessive maintenance and tender care when driving them. So they are good pieces of machinery.



I, though, am convinced that Navistar and Ford have made a mistake with the 6. 0. I may be wrong, but it's my money and my money will not buy the current V-8 diesel engines on the market.



As for the Chevy, if memory serves me correctly, they had a lot of problems with head gaskets between 40 & 70 thousand miles when they first came out... due to aluminum heads, I believe. As I recall, their fix was a different gasket, which was thicker. I was a field sales engineer for the 2nd largest aluminum company in the world before I retired. I was a proponent of the use of aluminum ALLOYS for many uses that were justifiable in the marketplace. But even I don't have faith in aluminum heads, gas or diesel. Heck, my wife's '01 F-250 CC has aluminum heads and I still don't think they'll last like cast iron... but that's what she wanted, so..... (She doesn't pull anything with it, just grocery shopping and hauling people!)



Physics comes into play with aluminum heads. Aluminum, in all of its alloys, expands and contracts at a different rate than iron. There's no way the block and head of a Duramax can get around the basic physics. And no way I'll ever put my money in one.



So you pay's your money and takes your choice. For my money and my use, I'm voting with my checkbook on Cummins and Dodge for the next 6 or so years.



Florida Ed

 

[klenger]

Nice post Ed. Thanks for your insite and experience.



I do have a question that someone out there should know the answer to: What is the purpose of using aluminum heads in the D-max? Surely, it can't save enought weight to matter in a 7000 lb truck with a GCWR of over 20,000 lbs.

 

[67guzzler]

I do have a question that someone out there should know the answer to: What is the purpose of using aluminum heads in the D-max? Surely, it can't save enought weight to matter in a 7000 lb truck with a GCWR of over 20,000 lbs.

Here is a "sneak peek" back from 2001 regarding the Duramax. They go into length about the advantages of the new engine design, including the use of aluminum in various places:



http://www.4x4review.com/news/new-silverado. asp



Here is a Duramax FAQ page. It talks about the Aluminum heads and how they propose no problems:



http://www.thedieselpage.com/duramax/durafaq.htm



P. S. I have to add that I neither agree or disagree -- just posting what I found using google