Need new fuel pump system

[BIGNASTY]

Going to have to come up with a new fuel pump and filter system, left Rapid City SD this am at -5 got about 20 miles into MT and the fuel filters froze up, kind of weird because I had anti gel in the fuel, but the wind was gusting to (supposedly) 70MPH the guy on the radio said. The Air Dog that I have had the filters attached and the whole works is attached to the frame via a clamp system, I have never had a problem like this before and didn't think much about it until I was on the side of the road changing the AD filters and the baldwin F/W. The filters that were on it had a bunch of snow attached, knocked it off changed the filters and F/W separator, Destroyed a windshield sun screen and wrapped the filters in it and attached it with a liberal amount of duck-tape to make a thermal wrap sort a kind a thing. It must of worked to keep the snow and wind off of it from under the truck. Drove home without further problems.

I hear that the Raptor AD fuel pump is a POS, any truth to this? I have had no problems the the AD with filters attached before this, got to look but maybe could mount it some place to keep it up out of the wind and road spray

Thanks for any ideas

BIG

PS the in-tank fix is not going to happen!!

 

[seafish]

The frame mounted Mopar Severe Duty FIlter Kit has a fuel heater on it, at least the original version of it did, and I don't think they would change that in the newer version, tough I could be wrong. It works with the in-tank pump and a harness that connects to the ecm. Here is my install--

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...NALLY-have-TRIPLE-fuel-filtration-on-my-truck!!!

 

[seafish]

And it looks like the FLeetguard filter head PN 3930335S also has the fuel heater in it--

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...756-Question-for-AH64ID&p=2356472#post2356472

 

[CBari]

I would go with a plastic battery box fill it with spray foam and cut out holes for everything to fit in. You already proven your technique works just need to refine it a little more and make it user friendly for filter changes.

 

[JR]

http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/fuelfilterheater.php

What about something like this BIG?

I agree, your system works great, no matter what you get fuel is most likely to gel in the filters unless they have a heater of their own.
I don't know how well those wraps work, if it were colder here I would invest in them but as it is we don't see much below 10 to 15 below zero, and only a handful of times a year. When its forecasted to be that cold I just dose the fuel a little and havent had any problems yet.

Just thinking about your gelling issue. I actually just ran my truck through 2 nights of sub zero weather (-3 and -7) without treating my fuel with anti gel. It wasnt intentional, but I filled my truck and did not have my bottle with me and it skipped my mind to dose the tank when I got home. It was treated with my normal dose of Schaeffers, but it is not an anti gel. Your fuel should not have gelled at -5 degrees, especially if you treated it. Do you have an auxillary tank that allows you to run extended distances between fill ups? I'm just wondering if by chance you filled up somewhere warmer where the fuel was not treated for the cold temps you were in when it gelled....

 

[BIGNASTY]

I would go with a plastic battery box fill it with spray foam and cut out holes for everything to fit in. You already proven your technique works just need to refine it a little more and make it user friendly for filter changes.

This has possibilities, it would for sure keep the weather off of them

http://utahbiodieselsupply.com/fuelfilterheater.php

What about something like this BIG?

I agree, your system works great, no matter what you get fuel is most likely to gel in the filters unless they have a heater of their own.
I don't know how well those wraps work, if it were colder here I would invest in them but as it is we don't see much below 10 to 15 below zero, and only a handful of times a year. When its forecasted to be that cold I just dose the fuel a little and havent had any problems yet.

Just thinking about your gelling issue. I actually just ran my truck through 2 nights of sub zero weather (-3 and -7) without treating my fuel with anti gel. It wasnt intentional, but I filled my truck and did not have my bottle with me and it skipped my mind to dose the tank when I got home. It was treated with my normal dose of Schaeffers, but it is not an anti gel. Your fuel should not have gelled at -5 degrees, especially if you treated it. Do you have an auxillary tank that allows you to run extended distances between fill ups? I'm just wondering if by chance you filled up somewhere warmer where the fuel was not treated for the cold temps you were in when it gelled....

JR this was pretty weird to have happen, I have ran the truck as is with the Fuel filters exposed with temps lower than what we were in when they did gel up. The fuel was from TN I don't know about their additive programs there, but I did use my anti gel when I topped off both the tanks before leaving in the AM, I carry 100 gal of fuel with both tanks the truck tank is about 35 gal I figure, and my aux tank is 65 gal don't know if the snow turn to ice stuck on the filters may have done it, if so then Mr. CBari's idea would work fine. It was -5 when we left Rapid City SD and then ran into some pretty hard snow and wind big time. I wonder about the battery draw down on the wraps, I don't run this truck everyday, I also took a look at the filter head that ran coolant thru it to heat the filter. I use an Espar in the truck to heat the coolant now its on all the time as it burns next to nothing for fuel, looking into the possibility of running this option and not need the wraps.


Thanks both of you for the heads up ideas

BIG

 

[CBari]

BIG I need a pay back in the idea department. I know you have and aux tank with a pump that you pump into the main tank, and have it fixed so if you forget to shut the pump off it just recirculates to the aux tank. I would like to do something like this on my 13 but can't quite wrap my head around how to do it since the 13 doesn't have a fuel cap. All of the tank manufactures kits tie into the factory gauge and shut the pump off when the main tank reaches 3/4 tank so as to prevent over pressurizing the tank.

Any thoughts.

 

[JR]

The coolant heated filter heads might be a good inexpensive option. I wonder with your filters being on the frame rail how much heat loss there would be from the engine to the filter heads? I'm not sure where they tap into the system, and how much flow there is. If you insulated the coolant hoses I'm sure it would be a non issue. The medium sized wrap draws 8.3 amps at full on, but are wired with a relay so they would not be on at all if the truck is off.

BIG, with your AD those heads won't work, unless your thinking of going to another system? The Raptor pumps have had major problems in the seals and have had a high failure rate from what i have seen, I think you would be better off sticking with what youve got or going back to an OEM pump if your looking at a different filter base. JMO.

 

[BIGNASTY]

BIG I need a pay back in the idea department. I know you have and aux tank with a pump that you pump into the main tank, and have it fixed so if you forget to shut the pump off it just recirculates to the aux tank. I would like to do something like this on my 13 but can't quite wrap my head around how to do it since the 13 doesn't have a fuel cap. All of the tank manufactures kits tie into the factory gauge and shut the pump off when the main tank reaches 3/4 tank so as to prevent over pressurizing the tank.

Any thoughts.

I would like to help ya out CB but if you don't have a fuel cap how do you fill your truck with fuel, or is it im not reading this right? this is how my aux tank is plumbed into the main tank, from the aux tank in the bed of the truck to a chevy aux fuel tank selector, the tank selector is just an in/out with an electric valve to shut off the flow of fuel, when first installed the tank selector was not part of the package. when I started the pump to transfer fuel it does that via a 12v timer that I got power for from under the drivers power seat controls. The pump will run for a max of 15 min, the reason of the selector is that when the transfer pump runs the timer to shut down the fuel still siphoned from aux tank to main tank. Im REALLY WEIRD about things like that I want to know how much fuel I have in the aux tank and how many transfers ive made. The Aux tank has a gauge but I don't trust it another weird thing with me. My aux tank when full will fill my main tank 2 times with some left over. But if it siphoned I really had no idea except for a gauge that I don't trust. I can use the main tank gauge and know that the transfer has taken place. But getting back to the plumbing, from the carter aux fuel pump its plumbed into the main tank vent line via a tee, it takes a while to transfer the fuel I make it when the main tank gets to a 1/4 tank left, on 15min cycle it fills it to ALMOST FULL. If the system should fail and the pump continue to run it would fill the main tank and then over fill it to the point that it would fill to up to the fill cap, but in the fill line is another tee that would return the overfill fuel back to the aux tank and it would just keep recycling the fuel. I have never had a problem with this system its an Aero aux fuel tank, the aux tank gauge is actually very accurate. I will go out in the AM and take some pictures of it and how its hooked up. If your truck fuel system is under pressure there could be a problem, I think that most all of the systems are under some sort of pressure because when I had it smoged in calif they test the fuel cap to make sure it seals. But I don't know about the 2013 systems.

The coolant heated filter heads might be a good inexpensive option. I wonder with your filters being on the frame rail how much heat loss there would be from the engine to the filter heads? I'm not sure where they tap into the system, and how much flow there is. If you insulated the coolant hoses I'm sure it would be a non issue. The medium sized wrap draws 8.3 amps at full on, but are wired with a relay so they would not be on at all if the truck is off.

BIG, with your AD those heads won't work, unless your thinking of going to another system? The Raptor pumps have had major problems in the seals and have had a high failure rate from what i have seen, I think you would be better off sticking with what youve got or going back to an OEM pump if your looking at a different filter base. JMO.

I think im going to run it as its always been and see if I have that same problem, I don't see anything different that hasn't worked before in very cold weather driving, and snow and ice has been on the filters before and been a non-issue until I used the only thing different, THE FUEL FROM Tennessee but even with that I put in the anti gel? If it does keep happening I like Mr CBari's idea of the box and foam insulation.`

I had thought that I read on here someplace that the Raptor fuel pumps were a POS, but I love my AD 100 its worked great not one problem even with filter changes I spin them on dry cycle the timer twice and fire it up and drive away.

 

[CBari]

Big the 2013 doesn't have a typical screw on cap like has been used for the last fifty years in automobiles instead they used a double flapper valve assembly. When you insert the fuel nozzle into the tank it flips the flapper open and you must insert the nozzle all the way to flip the second flapper open. If you don't get the second valve engaged you can't fill the tank as the auto shut off nozzle will shut off. I have been told that the lower flapper valve will leak if fuel is under pressure against it. I like the timer idea.

 

[NIsaacs]

I think you will be fine as is. I think it was a combo of cold thick fuel (not gelled) and plugged up filters. If it were truly gelled, you would still be there on the road.

Nick

 

[BIGNASTY]

Big the 2013 doesn't have a typical screw on cap like has been used for the last fifty years in automobiles instead they used a double flapper valve assembly. When you insert the fuel nozzle into the tank it flips the flapper open and you must insert the nozzle all the way to flip the second flapper open. If you don't get the second valve engaged you can't fill the tank as the auto shut off nozzle will shut off. I have been told that the lower flapper valve will leak if fuel is under pressure against it. I like the timer idea.

Then its like the one that's on a FIAT 500L that our friends just bought their daughter that moved here. I was looking at the car and Boss open the fuel fill door and I thought that the cap was gone, when in actuality the cap is the fuel door. FIAT called it an anti theft feature, Personally I don't like that idea, don't know how tight that door/fuel cap closes is but seems to me that some grime could get in the tank pretty easy with this system.

Ya I like the timer deal, when I put fuel in the truck I always fill the aux tank and let IT put the fuel in the main tank, the idea behind that is that there is always fresh fuel in the ENTIRE system and it sloshes around in the aux tank to keep it cleaner and not get stale and crummy fuel stored in it. I have talked to the Filter Yoda of TDR land AH64ID and have installed a Baldwin BF 1212 filter W/F seperator between aux tank and the pump he said it has better water removal than the AD W/S does, im WAY over filtered with this system because just before the CP3 I have a Cat 2mic filter to catch the crap as a last chance after it goes thru the OEM filter system. Maybe this is why I have had absolutely no problems with my injectors, had a guy in TN start his 3rd Gen at the fuel station he cranked on it for a long time it seemed, he got out and said it needed new injectors??? I fired my truck up and it starts as it always has, the Chrysler starters have that distinctive starting crank sound to them, mine fires on between the 2ond and 3rd whine of the starter has since new, his sat there dah dah dah dah dah dha and then fired up. He asked if I had new injectors because mine fired up so fast? Nope got 179K on the factory originals!!! He asked if I use additive I told him yes and expected the BS to follow but he said maybe he should have.

 

[BIGNASTY]

Hope this works my Computer skills leave something to be desired, Don't need much explanation with the timer on/off just turn and forget runs for 15 min.

White arrow is feed from aux tank with screen filter that catches BOULDERS, Green arrow is the output of the aux tank pump to main tank fill via the main tank vent line, What is not seen is the AD 100 uses the factory pickup from the Main tank, on the AD 100 there was no need to install a draw straw in the main tank ( instructions said if engine was modified the draw straw would be needed, my motor will ALWAYS remain stock) Before the input to the AD 100 is a Baldwin BF 1212 AH64ID said that this filter/ water / separator would rather have fuel DRAWN thru it rather than pushed, then thru the AD 100 filters and W/S using the highest filtering Fleetguard filters and separator, the Yellow arrow and Tee is the return to tank that the AD 100 has, its the fuel that cant be sent to the OEM filter and has already passed thru the filters, kind of an overflow if you will. AD 100 output is sent to OEM filter set up that I use a Baldwin filter in and uses a Glacier Diesel adapter to connect the large fuel line from the AD to the OEM filter housing then to a Cat 2 mic and pressure gauge Tee and on to the CP3 The pictures of the top of the aux tank, the top is the line going to the aux fuel pump, the lower is a aux tank vent line that has a valve (required by law) that if I should flip the truck the valve wont let fuel out. There used to be another part to the sticker ULSD under it I made, one that said ULSD is 5hit but it came off.

I think its plumbed a little differently than the other post but this is the way it is, the most filtered fuel there is. I wanted to just get a fuel pump and plumb the aux thank to the main and then the main tank to a pump thru a W/S to the OEM and then a Cat to the CP3 would have been a lot easier but the crap OEM lift pump on the side of the OEM filter housing took a dump on me at 45k crossing an overpass of I 10 on Riverside Ave. and I needed the truck the next day so the AD 100 is what I found THEN.

 

[CM_Guest]

There's been some bad fuel around lately. But apparently only at the truck stops that lots of diesel pickup guys go to because the fuel quality is so high. Right. They're selling fuel to truckers that don't have a clue what good fuel is and electronic engines let them get away with selling that crap. IF the truck and fuel are kept warm. Im a John Deere technician in western Nebraska and we had a LOT of problems with our machinery truck gelling up this winter. But the fuel itself wasn't "gelling" because it wasn't near cold enough for fuel to actually start to "gel" where the paraffin precipitates out. Kind of like your situation, huh? It was WATER in the fuel of that truck, which gets lots of short runs and cold starts hauling machinery daily but also is fueled at a truck stop. Everybody thinks truck stops have good fuel because of the turnover. No, they can get away with selling crap because of the turnover and the fact that the trucks and tanks are always warm. And because they pump a lot in and a lot out, the crap in their tanks stays stirred up. He tried all kinds of additives before I figured out that it had to be water. Power-Service and other additives can't do ANYTHING to cure icing fuel because there's nowhere for the water to go. I finally suggested he just pump the tank dry, get every bit of the old fuel out of the system that he could and start over. He did, but it hasn't been cold enough to know if it worked. It's a Kenworth with a Caterpillar. It would start and then die at 20 degrees. A bunch of us drive diesel pickups and we had a couple days of -20 and NONE of our pickups had a problem. And as far as I know, we ALL get our fuel from CO-OP stations. THAT'S where you get good fuel. Because a farmer with cows to feed in the dead of winter is NOT going to put up with crappy fuel. And these days a lot of small farmers don't mess with dyed fuel if they have diesel pickups so they just buy clear fuel and run it in their tractors. So even the road fuel has to be good. I also heard that they're not BLENDING fuel any more. My mom runs a grocery store with fuel pumps and they had a couple of customers have problems this winter. Turns out they weren't getting winter blend fuel.

 

[JR]

So the new trucks (HPCR fuel systems) can ingest contaminated fuel but the older rigs can't?

Nebraska farmers must be alot richer then Ohio farmers Every farm I know including ours has an offroad tank sitting at the yard for equipment. When you burn 800-1000 gallons a month that .52 per gallon adds up quick. There are a couple of Co ops that sell fuel locally here, and I agree that they are the best bet for purchasing fuel. I know one owner of a fuel station personally and he claims his fuel is not a #1 and #2 blend, but I have seen stations out west where the temps are much colder advertising the percentage at the pumps.

 

[Killgore]

I think you all walked right by a rattlesnake in the brush. BIG's got a good system but all systems are subject to overload. The guy in the 3rd Gen that BIG mentioned in Post #12 that was cranking and cranking, and who had replaced his injectors, probably filled up there all the time. Hmmm...
- Ed

 

[BIGNASTY]

I was wondering about this part of the comment

Quote
They're selling fuel to truckers that don't have a clue what good fuel is and electronic engines let them get away with selling that crap.

For the truckers not having a clue!!! that would depend on if they are a Company driver or an Owner/Operator to keep a 1 or 2 truck business going in today's economy, one has to be a pretty sharp individual that know's whats going on with his equipment.

The Truck engines of today are just as High Tech as anything else on the market, the motors of today are FAR MORE PICKY as to what they are being fed over the old Cummins and Cat motors that I had.


Quote
CO-OP stations. THAT'S where you get good fuel. Because a farmer with cows to feed in the dead of winter is NOT going to put up with crappy fuel. And these days a lot of small farmers don't mess with dyed fuel if they have diesel pickups so they just buy clear fuel and run it in their tractors. So even the road fuel has to be good.




I will have to agree that I wish I could run the fuel that is brought to the house, but it is Dyed and the fine is astronomical if I got caught running it in my Dodge.

And your right about NOT putting up with Crappy fuel, the wife's New Case IH Tractor with all the exhaust treatments that any new road truck has WONT LET HER.

I wouldn't consider my FIL's operation Small? but its not any Huge cattle business either, and he runs Dyed diesel in what ever is legal to BECAUSE THE COST DIFFERENCE IS SIGNIFICANT

 

[BIGNASTY]

I think you all walked right by a rattlesnake in the brush. BIG's got a good system but all systems are subject to overload. The guy in the 3rd Gen that BIG mentioned in Post #12 that was cranking and cranking, and who had replaced his injectors, probably filled up there all the time. Hmmm...
- Ed

I was wondering about this ED when he told me that it was cold as a well diggers A** and I didn't have time to discuss the world events with him. My truck has always and still does fire pretty fast with the turn of the key, I have listened to others that crank and crank and wondered what they had wrong. Is the long crank times a sign of fuel system and injector problems? I have close to 180k on my OEM motor with the exception of a Bypass filter, lift pump and Fuel filtration and the religious use of Additives or Homemade BIO in summer.

BIG

 

[Killgore]

BIG, I think your thinking is on top of it. If I was that guy, I would change stations, run some additive to try and clear up the cranking problem, and hope I hadn't ruined a second set of injectors.
- Ed

 

[roxanwright]

I case anyone is interested it is a Racor filter set up next to the tank. Racor is designed work only on the suction side of the fuel system to help the lift pumps and everything else down the line.