Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Need some Trans advice

[work2muchplay2little]

Went to the dealer and had TSB 18-02-99 done - under warranty can you believe it? Some interesting observations to report. First of all it appears to have fixed the TCC repetitive lock/unlock. Second, since I've owned the truck, it has always shifted from 1-2 at about 1500-1600 RPM regardless of throttle position - now it doesn't shift until about 2000 RPM under light throttle or close to 3000 with WOT - much better! Third, my other problem that occurred simultaneously with the erratic TCC behavior - the long delay from 3rd to 4th gear (sometimes several miles at a constant speed) is fixed. So, needless to say, I'm happy with the results and hoping it's permanent.



BTW - the service writer came out and told me he couldn't guarantee the PCM reflash would take with all the electronic "junk" on it (the EZ and FMS boxes). You'd think these guys would know a little more about how these boxes work

 

[deezuldon]

So far so good

Ed:



It's been what? A couple weeks since I've had the truck back from the dealer, and trans is operating "normally". I say normally, because I think this problem wouldn't exist if the trans would shift from 3 to 4 at a higher rpm. Dropping into overdrive at 42-43 mph (light throttle) is 1200 rpms - that's really "lugging" the engine. Applying heavy throttle at that rpm over time HAS to be hard on the trans clutch surfaces... so I don't. I manually unlock the TCC or wait until it gets up to 1500 rpm (50 mph +/-) before I mash the pedal. The transmission should be programmed to hold 3rd until it reaches 1500. Anyway... .



I'm really aware of that 42-50 mph range where the TCC was doing it's lock/unlock thing. You know how that is - you keep waiting for it to happen again. And my concern is that it will - eventually. I've only driven maybe 600 miles since the service, haven't been using truck too much. Unfortunately I don't think it's a permanent fix! But I'd LOVE to be wrong!



I think the reflash, if anything, did it. This is the second reflash since the original problem 20,000 miles ago. I think there's more than one "version" of the software in the reflash that is available for the dealer to install. I don't have any idea which one was used. Same as first one? Or different? The one called for in the TSB? Don't know.



The big question: Will it "stick"?



Wonder what will happen when they take the telltale, the "black box" off your truck? If it happens again, then what? Back to the dealer to have it put on yet again? I'd lean on 'em to have it stay there for a while! (I still wonder if there's something in the "box" that affects the PCM - and they ain't saying? Especially since no problems while the box has been hooked up!)



Best of luck anyway! Keep posting! Eventually there's gotta be a fix for this "disease"!



Deezuldon

 

[KRobinson]

Log another 99 unhappy auto trans

I would like to weigh in with Ed & deezuldon and their experiences. My 99 Cummins 4x4 is stock, no upgrades, no aftermarket changes etc. I bought it with 89k miles one year ago and it now has 108k. About 1 month into driving it around town the same troubles started.



To summarize what I have been through trying to fix this hunting problem or TCC lock/unlock I will tell you what it was not in order of dealer repairs or replacements I have paid dearly for.



It is NOT caused by the:

1) Overdrive solenoid (dealer replaced)

2) PCM reflashed (18-02-99 worked about a week or less).

3) Tran fluid / filter / valve body dirty (dealer replaced with OD solenoid & new ATF4 expensive stuff)

4) Speed sensor ( trans shop replaced)

5) Transmission & torque converter, second set of pressure governor & OD solenoids with the new trans (trans shop installed new about 1 month ago )

6) My non-aggressive driving style ( This should be obvious since there will always be times you can't run over the slow ferd driver in front of you! )

7) Turning off OD in city... . this caused the hunting (worse) in 3rd - 4th gear shift. Note, with OD On, the other gear shifts are normal with no hunting.



I agree that it appears to happen with light pedal pressure and low rpms. But that is a normal city and sometimes highway driving situation which Dodge should not expect any owner to have to suffer through. You would think we, TDR as an organization / group, could get some sort of formal and reasonable response from a knowledgable source other than dealers. My dealer, god knows, has tried but can't find the answer.



With some specific details I can try the wiring harness and grounding fixes but they don't sound promising. I would like to know about the "tell-tale" device and if it still is holding off the problem. . Just call me $4k lite and frustrated!

 

[emjay]

I didn't see TPS on your list. Are you saying that the dealer replaced the trans without the trying the TPS? Say it ain't so, Mr. Robinson!



Anyway, I was curious about item 7 that you listed indicating hunting worse in 3-4 with OD off. Since OD is 4th, do you mean 2-3 or the TCC locking & unlocking? The TCC locking and unlocking is a design "feature", and therefore cannot be repaired. If that is indeed the case, help is on the way. My company is developing a product to alleviate that particular problem as well as some others, and adds a few neat features, too. If all goes well, it will be announced at the SEMA show in November.

 

[EFielding]

Deezul,

Well, the latest:



Have had the tell-tale in for the last 3 weeks. The truck has not coughed, choked, puked or bucked ONE TIME!! I have NO DOUBT that it knew the tell-tale was installed! On Thursday (8/5) had the tell-tale removed. Dealer wanted it back. I did note that he had repositioned 4 wires (black/tan tracer) from the main bundle across the from of the block to a gray plastic connector immediately adjacent to the aux battery. I'm not sure what the wires do/go, but I'm severely lacking in knowing how to read a wiring schematic. Blueprints, yes. Wiring diagrams !



Anyway, so far, so good. Today is Sunday and have driven another 100 miles with nary a hiccup. Go figure.



Any luck on your end?



EMJAY, what's up? New product that will solve our ills without rebuilding the truck or rewiring the the thing? More, more! Inquiring minds want to know If you've read the thread (and I'm sure you have), you are aware that most of our problems are with 4th-o/d lock-unlock. If you come up with a fix, put me on your short list!



Let us know more if you can.

 

[EFielding]

RE: my last:

should read "I did note that he had repositioned 4 wires (black/tan tracer) from the main bundle across the front of the block to a gray plastic connector immediately adjacent to the aux battery

 

[KRobinson]

More to the story

Emjay, you are correct, the "hunting" would be at the 2-3 shift point. With OD On , the truck drives normally, that is to say no hunting until you get to the OD shift point at approximately 45 - 50 mph. This is where the "hunting" will drive you nuts. When I experience this constant speed around town I normally turn off the OD so I won't go nuts. If I then have to set on the 2-3 shift point I again experience the "hunting". I have assumed this is the torque converter lockup (and unlock).



I have not replaced the TPS ( which I assume you are calling the APPS or Accelerator Pedal Positioning Sensor). Dodge gave it a whole new name in 99! I has been high on my list of suspects but I have been putting off any more experiments that have significant price tags.



There is a little more to the trans replacement story. As I said I have been living with the hunting since a few weeks after purchase. 2 months ago the truck suddenly one morning without warning would not shift out of 1st gear. Given all I have read on TDR and the miles on the truck I thought it might be a good time to replace the trans, and I might get lucky that the "hunting" would be cured. I did a lot of "shopping" and found that the dealer wanted $2100 to rebuild what I have. Accurate Transmission through local parts stores was about the same but had a mighty nice warranty with it. I really wanted to do the ATS or DTT solutions but the warranty kept swaying me. I still have reservations about having not gone with them but I love the Cummins diesel so much I may get another chance somewhere down the road.



Anyway the final story was the "hunting" problem was not cured after the transmission and torque converter were replaced. I am very interested in what you and your company come up with. Put me down, I am in. In the mean time I guess I will be looking at the wiring harness.

Oo.

 

[rattlnrench]

Had to jump in...





I just got finished spending 2 1/2 days on mine for a no 1-2 shift . While I haven't had a hunting issue with the TC I have had a couple of other things with my personal truck & wanted to share my experiences with customers trucks. The TC hunting issues I've repaired on customers trucks were either the TPS(APPS) or the transmission temperature sensor. Both of these were TEMPERATURE related. In other words to duplicate the symptoms the temperature of the component had to be just right to fail. The temp. sensor on late models is located on the governor pressure transducer. Replace one & you replace both. I had a hunting 1-2 on my truck & the pressure transducer repaired it. My no 1-2 shift was an output speed sensor. No governor rise so no shift($27 part). There are 2 computers on our trucks(ECM & PCM). The PCM controls the shifting. The reason I state that is when you scan the truck you have to be looking @ the right computer otherwise you will miss the glitch. The biggest problem I had with the no 1-2 was my scan tool(OTC Genysis) which worked great when I first got it but due to an update lost its ability to communicate with my truck on OEM information. I've had it REPAIRED 6 times with no success... ... . IT'S FOR SALE..... CHEAP.

 

[rattlnrench]

Just kidding about the scan tool sale... .

I couldn't sell this thing to anyone with a clear conscience. It's aggravating to spend $3k with all the upgrades & have the thing let you down when you need it the most. Gonna call OTC today & see if they would like it with or without Vasaline.

 

[deezuldon]

Ed:

Wrote up a reply last night, but it wouldn't post. Sorry! TDR's software doesn't like my Zone Alarm at times for some reason... .

Anyway, for the truck: So far, so good. I've put probably 12-1300 miles on truck since leaving dealer and most recent reflash. Fingers are crossed; not expecting it to last, though!



KRobinson is having the exact same symptoms I've had - twice. Turning off the overdrive solves the problem at that 42-50 mph threshold, but then it affects the the TCC lock/unlock at 30-35 mph. Either way it drives you nuts! If the trans would not shift until the engine's at 1500 rpm or above, the problem would go away. It's that 1200 rpm drop into TCC lock (overdrive "on") - too low an rpm for the engine, and tough on TC clutch surfaces because of the massive engine torque at that rpm - where the problem begins to show up.



Rattlnrench: I would agree with your post, but in my particular case, dealer scan showed all sensors (including temp) OK. All though the temp sensor is one that the dealer was suspect of. Don't know what the problem was, but the second reflash of the PCM has solved the problem - at least for now. Will it "stick"? Problem could be any number of variables; if it was just one repeatable thing this would have been a lot easier! (And this thread a lot shorter!)



In talking with Emjay at one point, he indicated (and it makes sense) that Dodge "built" their own electronics outside of the Cummins product, to communicate with Cummins electronics on the engine. One "talks" to the other. I think something gets lost in the translation!



Jump in here Emjay! How you doing with your project?



Deezuldon

 

[deezuldon]

Oops!

Forgot to mention the wiring thing that Ed brought up. I am not a wiring schematic expert either. Anybody out there figure out what the connections were on that magic "telltale" box on Ed's engine?



As I understand it, the box was suppoed to "record" a TCC hiccup like we've been discussing, but that's what the dealer was told. And what Ed was told. I've guessed that while Ed had that hooked up that there was something in that box that somehow controlled the PCM externally. Like over-rode the PCM at certain PCM outputs? It's just a guess and I may be way off - but it's interesting to note that Ed's problem has disappeared, too! And how long will that last? (Sorry Ed!)

 

[emjay]

Send me one of those boxes and I'll dissect it!



The plan is to announce the product at this years SEMA show in November. It's getting pretty close!

 

[EFielding]

Hey Deezul,

Thanks for the good wishes



Seriously, I'm not sure that the tell-tale had anything to do with the problem. I just know that after the dealer plugged the box into the OBD port at the dash, the problem quit. Now MAYBE, the ground wir re-locate did too, but I don't know that.



Just for grins, the setup consisted of a box about 8"L x2"Dx4"W. This box goes under the seat (most convenient). Attached to this box are 2 wiresapprox. 1/4" dia. One set goes to the OBD plug at the dash and the other goes to a 1"x1"x4" box with a triangular button. When the truck does "it's thing" you push the button on the hand set and the box under the seat wil electronically record the malfunction. The box will record up to 3 incidents. If activated a 4th time, the 4th will overwrite the earliest recording etc.



Again, I NEVER had an opportunity to record an incident.

 

[BBradley]

Tell Tale Box

Hello everyone on this thread. I had the box on my truck for two weeks and pushed the button at every time I had a hick up, choke, surge or what ever happened! Upon returning to dealer, I learned the dealer's computer was not updated to accept any input from the box. So, nothing was recorded.

The good news though they changed the Throttle Position Sensor and I have 2500 miles on truck since repair and NOOOOOOOO problems!!!!!!!!

This has been a long and very good Thread to follow. It still seems that 99-00 models have the most problems. I will be on the road starting next week for the rest of the month and covering approximate 2000 miles. Hope I come back with no problems. And so does the dealer. Oo.

Good Luck everyone and keep reporting.

Bob

 

[Un-Hemi]

A thought: Where was your truck built? I wonder if there is any correlation. Mine's a St Louis truck with 50,000 hotshot miles on it and the transmission works as it should.

 

[EFielding]

Tommy,

Built in Mexico. You bring up an interesting point. I don't think anyone has done any field research in regards to "trans problems vs. location built". Thread readers may want to give some input.



Do you think DC will care??

 

[rattlnrench]

The trucks I have see a problem with would never go completely open or shorted on the sensors that were acting up & therefore set a code. The voltage from the sensors would start to fluctuate a little & get worse until they were jumping around very quickly, eventually going over the threshold for TC engagemant. I have taken movies of sensor failures with a scan tool before. The refresh rate on the tool has a lot to do with it. If the tool is taking a movie of every 4th frame a sensor can cause a problem without the movie catching it(movie on 1st frame, problem on 3rd). I had a T-Bird that got a transmission overhaul(by a competitor) that only had a bad transmission lever position sensor on it. After the overhaul didn't fix it the customer brought it to me & I had to test drive it 250 miles before it acted up. Back @ the shop I played the movie back & 1 frame of it, out of 150, said the transmission was in park. I knew that wasn't right because I was doing 65mph on the movie also. New switch, car fixed, customer for life. BTW. Not all sensors set a code anyway. My output speed sensor didn't. The computer thought the truck was not moving, therefore no need for a shift. Also the information about the output speed sensor & vehicle speed sensor backing each other up is wrong. Thay do work independently in the PCM.

 

[BBradley]

Truck Builder

You might have something started, My truck was built in Mexico.

 

[EFielding]

Rattlnrench

You make a good point.



Question is: how do you get the service writer and the tech to believe that that may be the problem? AND, how does one go about getting DC to pay for the "experimentation" to determine that the temp sensors are the problem? DC (and others) are notoriously frugal (read cheap) when it comes to spending money for warranty repairs.



I've got a pretty open minded service writer, but I can envision the "raised eyebrows" already.

 

[rattlnrench]

I've been doing this for 27 years now. I can't count how many times a vehicle has acted up on a customer & been fine when I test drove it, many times with the customer in the passenger seat telling me they are not crazy, while the vehicle performs flawlessly. I look at it this way. The customer has more experience with this particular vehicle than I do. They have "test driven" this vehicle thousands of miles & know what's right or wrong with it(or the symptoms). No one has an abundance of time & a vehicle repair is an inconvenience at best. I always take a customer seriously when they say there is a problem with the way their vehicle is acting. I stay on it untill the problem is handled, period. Maybe I will lose money on the eventual fix. There is no way I could charge for the amount of time it took to find the trans. switch. However the same gentleman has a starting problem on his van & I'll be working on it soon. I've also done a lot of work for him since the switch problem. It will all come out in the wash. There are people who care. You just have to find them. Ask the service writer, tech, whoever if they do care & take pride in what they do. Tell them your problem is not an easy one. When they realize you understand the difficulty in their job they will probably be a lot more sympathetic & willing to help you. Always ask for an explanation of what they did find. You deserve to know & they should be more than willing to share that with you.