Need stonger transmission than 5 speed

[Garry Verheyden]

I have a 96 5 speed with somewhere around 400+H. P. I am towing a 35' triple slide fifth wheel weighing 15-16000 lbs loaded. After eating my stock clutch I installed a luk dual friction clutch,this lasted about 3 wks (cooked). Installed the full ceramic version and this held great,although it was terrible for backing the trailer up (too much chatter). Other than both my wife and I having to learn how to drive all over again with a ceramic clutch,it was a pretty good set up. Then recently we were towing up a long hill at about half throttle in 4th gear when 30 seconds later I snapped my input shaft. My wife has started complaining that every time we go on vacation we are having breakage. Iam wondering if anyone has installed a 6sp Allison or 7sp Eaton I want to build a drivetrain out of a bus or larger truck that can handle the torque that these engines can produce. If anyone has done this how difficult and expensive is it and what kind of rpms do you run on the highway??

 

[Dan Markeson]

eh hem

If I didn't know you I'd be awfully afraid to hook up to a big trailer now. All that breakage from one little ole' 16,000 lb. trailer! As Paul Harvey says "and now for the rest of the story!!!!!" Maybe before too many bleeding hearts want to come to your rescue (or feel bad about towing their trailers) we ought to mention being sideways on dry pavement at 45 mph with smoke rolling off those 35" BFG's! How's about drag racing 5. 0 liter Mustangs? DAILY?!!!!!! Not that these minor infractions on your drive train would have significantly contributed to any of the breakage you've experienced, but I thought they'd deserve an honorable mention!!!

 

[QRTRHRS]

Geez,



Bad enough Dan has to hear it from the wife but another member? What's the big deal about towing 16k? This is an excellent topic as the five speed is a POS even when used as a daily driver. If it's not the input, its the fifth gear nut, that and never the right gear.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Well the Allison or Eaton would be nice for the trailer towing, but they are probably not set up for the extra activities.



A member in Texas ( handle- I believe was Large Car) put a Allison 9 spd in his Dodge. Strictly for towing.

 

[SLang]

This is an excellent topic as the five speed is a POS even when used as a daily driver

Ya know I hear a lot of s*** about the NV4500 being trouble but never have seen it. My truck was owned by Vameer for the first 120k miles. If you are not familiar with these guys they do equipment rental. Mine was a salesmans truck and was usually driven empty and olny used to haul once or twice a week. Now there were 6 different salesmans that drove my truck. So, its a given that it was raped every day. Also when it hauled, they put a 30-35' GN with a ditcher, back hoe, bobcat, etc. on it. I can't tell you for sure but I would guess the CGVW was over 20K. This this held together for that.



I have put the TST #11 plate and 370 injectors in it and its still holding. Every now and then on a good drunk I'll spool it up and leave some dually marks out of the driveway but other than that I run it smooth and easy. I would say >80% of troubles are caused by the owner. When I put the 370's in I found my stock clutch slipping. Don't have the cash for a new one so I keep my power down to save the clutch. If I ran it everyday hard my clutch would die. Solution don't do that.



Most things give indications of ware and future breakage. Sometime you know of the problem and do it anyway. I do the same. But I don't blame the truck for my mistake.



Hell why is Dodge having problems and Chevy is not. They are the same piece of equipment.



Not trying to bad mouth ya QRTRHRS just think people should know thier trucks not complian about them.

 

[The patriot]

Not good news...

Garry I dont think it would be a major project if your truck was a 2wd. Being it's a 4wd, I think there would be a major amount of work involved, not to mention floor pan work. Have you ever seen the size of those transmissions in the large trucks. HUGE!!

Eric

This is JMO, I aint no expert.

 

[Forrest]

Uh-oh

Gary,



The #10 wasn't enough, so I went to the #8, 3/4 of the way forward. Now I've got a #4. 8, for us Gov Spring pumpers , ready to go in. Maybe I won't!

 

[jimk]

Transmission

I have seen a two ton Ford service truck that came with a Cummins engine in it and I don't remember what transmission it was, I think a spicer or maybe a clark. Since you have a 4x4 it may be possible to use a divorced style of transfer case if the drive shaft is on the correct side.



You might contact advanced adapters and see what it offered or maybe what some of the people that use their trucks to the pull sleds with.



Would the transmission out of the I think a Blue Bird bus work as I was told they are a C series engine in them.



I don't blame you for wanting a better transmission as the 5 speed has had problems in the past. All though you are making more power than the drive train was designed for.



LOL

Jim

 

[Garry Verheyden]

Eric,

Thanks for the input,I have not seen any of these transmissions before but I expect them to be big. I thought I could always remove my lift kit and add a 2-3" body lift to clear the larger bellhousing. As for the 4wd, no idea how much work is involved. Hopefully someone out there has done this before. I may have to put this whole idea on hold untill I can afford to buy a second Dodge 2wd to biuld on and use that as my designated tow rig.

Garry.

 

[pcorssmit]

The t-case shouldn't be a problem, just get a divored NP 205 out of a mid 70's Ford. They have a left-hand drop like the '94+ Dodges, and are quite strong.



Pete

 

[Dan Markeson]

[Bad enough Dan has to hear it from the wife but another member?]



First. Had to rib Gary a little. I don't really believe things would have went so badly had they not been driven hard during the week. I'm not saying driving hard is wrong. I burned the rubber off mine right up until I broke third gear. I'll do it again when I have the spare cash to rebuild the transmission again. Second, how many out there are making at or over 450 HP, racing during the week and hooking up to a trailer like that on the weekend and pulling mountains like they have in BC? It's a hell of a one-two punch. If some one is doing it with a different transmission I'd sure like to know about it. I can guarantee the 5-speed is never going to take it.



[Hell why is Dodge having problems and Chevy is not. They are the same piece of equipment. ]



Answer. The Cummins is capable of HP and Torque. Chevy hasn't put anything under the hood capable of breaking it. The NV 4500 would likely run a million miles in a VW. The question is can we put a transmission in these beasts that will take what the Cummins can dish out.

 

[Missouri Mule]

Large Car put in an Allison 4spd auto with 3 spd auxillary trans.



I think if you found trans out of international or freightliner with the small block diesels the transmission would be closer fit.

 

[HFletcher]

I think you should investigate an Allison MT643. I'm presently converting my motorhome (22,000 pounds) to that, and replacing the Allison AT545. The 643 has a lockup torque converter, and should be sufficient to match the torque/hp I'm adding via TST#5, and Piers super-turbo. We shall see. At545 would probably suffice if you're light-footed, which is unlikely if you're on this webwsite.



Might need to do lift to clear additional trans/flywheel diameter, and it ain't light - 5 or 6 hundred pounds as I recall. Also need a SAE#2 flywheel housing (can buy for approx $500), and other parts. But if you persevere, you'll end up with a four speed auto that's supposed to handle about a 70,000 pound vehicle and about 650 foot-pounds of torque. I doubt your pickup could seriously test this transmission. The Allison boys I'm working with don't think my application can.



Above figures are best recollection of research conducted a month ago. Understand, also, its long past my bedtime, and I'm gett'in married tomorrow - slightly neurotic tonite, but think the above info is not a waste of your time. Good luck!



big weight

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

A broken NV4500 input is almost always caused by either shock or vibration. The former could be from powershifts, burnouts, or an extremely harsh clutch/shifting. The latter is usually caused by inadequate or no springing in the clutch disk's hub, and may be exacerbated by pulling loads at low rpm like 1200-1600.

I have had good results with the NV4500 @ 600 hp/1400 ft lb, assuming the Standard Trans fully splined mainshaft is used.

 

[The patriot]

Congrats Fletch. Welcome aboard!

Eric

 

[Dan Markeson]

Hey Joe!

Thank you for the input. Didn't know about the vibration issues. Have another question for you. Does lower compression require more advance on the timing? Spent the weekend under Gary's hood. Pulled the engine. Pulled the pan and checked main bearings, replaced the rod bearings, did our nasties to the dowel pin. New ported, polished, decked, valved, and ceramic coated (exterior)head with 60 lb. springs all around put on with a . 020" over head gasket.



The timing sounds/feels more retarded now than when we started. I'm not talking subtle. His is now as bad as mine and I think mine's been slipping (back) for a while. They should both be parked until fixed in my opinion. I'm about to do the timing myself, but when I do, wanted to know if a degree should be added for the slightly reduced compression. Thank you.

 

[CJ Johansson]

So, you want a tougher transmission? How about a Fuller RTO6610 10 speed Road Ranger? I've heard it'll work/fit, will cost around $2200 to $2500.

Drawbacks are, it requires an air supply and for 4x4 you'll need to rig up something for a divorced transfer case like an NP205 or such.

I haven't looked into this yet as my transmission is still working fine. But, if it ever grenades, I'll be looking in this direction.

A contact who supposedly has info on what parts are needed as well as used/rebuilt tranies is:

Lane at Wholesale Truck Parts in Portland OR. 1-800-547-1315.

If you check into this, please report back to the group about your findings!



-cj

 

[therabbittree]

allison trannys

hey a allison is possible . . a 540 (not 545 or 643). . is pretty light basically a big version of a turbo 400 gm transmission... you can tweak them preety sick and even get a trans brake for it hehe. . i know of several people that have them in drag pickups powered by detroit 6v53 engines pushing 600hp and more and 1200-plus foot pounds of torque..... they are a 4speed and i believe they lock upright after 1st gear. . or at least thats how my friend builds em... . you can run a turbo 400torque converter in ity too i recommend sending it out and having as much stall as possible taken out of the converter!!... my race trucvk project will be running one. . for a 4x4 you would have to use a divorced transfercase... . heck i am thinking of egtting one for my '89 cummins 1 ton 4x4. . i have the 3 speed 727. . its strong but i wonder for how long... . how that helps ya. . oh yeah 540s are relatively cheap and pick used ones up from $400-$600 bucks . . then go through it and build up. .

later

\x/ hillfolk!