Need to swap 2WD for 4WD

[Jim Marrs]

I’m new to Turbo Diesel Register and am looking for assistance. Moved from Texas to Pennsylvania and need to swap my trusty 2003 RAM 2500 24V Cummins Turbo Diesel, 6-Speed Manual
VIN: 3D7KA28C43G797097

…for a RAM 2500-3500 Cummins Turbo Diesel with automatic transmission with at least 10K lb tow capacity. I’m pulling an 8,000 lb travel trailer in sometimes icy conditions on steep roads and my 2WD, while terrific on the highway, isn’t cutting it off road or on steep gravel.

Any recommendations on best course of action?

 

[CharlesinGA]

Since PA is in the rust belt, GO BACK to TEXAS and find and buy a 4x4 model, and sell the 2x4 model. I have an '03 2x4 HO engine with 6 speed, but wished it was a 4x4. It isn't and I won't be spending the money on one any time soon.

Charles

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Just my .02 : The time, effort and material cost isn't worth it to swap a 4x4, it'd probably be easier to get a 4x4 truck and just transfer all the good bits over to it.

In the south east where I live an NV5600 Swap for just the components alone is about 4-5K, 4x4 is a premium on top of that, and its all units of unknown condition/working order.

 

[AH64ID]

Just my .02 : The time, effort and material cost isn't worth it to swap a 4x4, it'd probably be easier to get a 4x4 truck and just transfer all the good bits over to it.

In the south east where I live an NV5600 Swap for just the components alone is about 4-5K, 4x4 is a premium on top of that, and its all units of unknown condition/working order.

He’s taking about buying a 4x4, not doing a 4x4 conversion.

 

[slowmover]

I’m new to Turbo Diesel Register and am looking for assistance. Moved from Texas to Pennsylvania and need to swap my trusty 2003 RAM 2500 24V Cummins Turbo Diesel, 6-Speed Manual
VIN: 3D7KA28C43G797097

…for a RAM 2500-3500 Cummins Turbo Diesel with automatic transmission with at least 10K lb tow capacity. I’m pulling an 8,000 lb travel trailer in sometimes icy conditions on steep roads and my 2WD, while terrific on the highway, isn’t cutting it off road or on steep gravel.

Any recommendations on best course of action?

Welcome

Off road, or just off-pavement?

Icy is a bad idea with a TT in every case.

Steep gravel is the only one to solve.

RWD needs traction at the rear not compromised by being too light. Payload. The TT doesn’t suffice as technically it is not payload. TW is just a shorthand reference for a more complicated rendering of forces exerted by the long lever from hitch ball to TT axle center. TW changes in every foot of travel. 1,100-lb TW is not the same as an equivalent bed load. Under power with a near empty bed it could decrease to under 100-lbs. Even go negative, lifting the Drive Axle.

“Empty” is with 500# in bed. Fuel mileage is otherwise lower as the rear axle hasn’t sufficient force to keep it planted under power.

Does “steep gravel” as a difficulty include with 500-1,000# or more in bed without the trailer? Tested in different ways (angle of attack, approach speed, etc?) Tire design and tread pattern sufficient?

Setting up a WD hitch involves getting traction problems lowered. Not to mention that steering & braking are better (verified on a weight scale). This betters total traction, but fewer than 10% ever get it right.

Not saying 4WD wouldn’t be easier. PA can be difficult off major highways or Interstate, no question. It’s a trade-off in far higher long and short term cost, however. Expect for budgeting that the norm with used 4WD examples is that they were abused along the way. Then, that the Auto Trans will need a major rebuild.

It’s traction that’s the problem, not the number of driving wheels. Class 5, 6, 7, and 8 get around without AWD, remember. All year.

Solve that first (consistently high ground pressure per tire) and what you really need versus want will more clearly distinguish themselves as separate.

I agree about heading back south to find a substitute if testing proves it worthwhile to your satisfaction. It may be that the gravel problem can be dealt with. Pickup trucks got around PA a whole lot longer without 4WD than they have with it as an option.

FWIW, Texas is the easiest state in the Union to operate a truck. No competition. Every other state has exceptions which whittle things down. You may think you’ve slowed sufficiently in PA — the mental planning challenges, not just average speed — but dollars to donuts the adaptation still has a ways to go.

On average, Texas drivers lack discipline brought by exigent difficulties. I’ve learned this hard way a few times as a truck driver out of Texas.

Good luck.

.

 

[AH64ID]

Pickup trucks got around PA a whole lot longer without 4WD than they have with it as an option.

lol, not so sure about that.

The first pickup was produced by Ford in 1925. Aftermarket 4x4 conversions were first offered in 1935, and Dodge had the first factory 4x4 option in 1946. All domestic pickups were available in 4x4 in the late 1950’s.

 

[Tuesdak]

Having spent a lot of time with a 2WD Sonoma and a 6x12 Uhaul behind it in Colorado … I suggest 4x4 isn’t the cost effective answer and may not solve your problem. Skill in that muck goes a long way.

First suggestion is Summer is on the way and that will give you time to get out of the ice and snow.

Tires and weight in the bed has already been suggested. It helps!

It would be cheaper to trade the travel trailer for a camper like a Northern Light or Bigfoot. This gives you cargo traction and eliminates 4 trailer tires to drag through snow and ice. 4x4 Diesel’s command enough money over 2WD that it’s cheaper to buy a new camper!

After tires put a good locking rear end in the 2WD. It’s better than a 4x4 with open diffs! An air selectable locker is safer on snow and ice: if both rear tires are locked the rear likes to step out under power on ice. So force rear unlocked at speed.

 

[AH64ID]

After tires put a good locking rear end in the 2WD. It’s better than a 4x4 with open diffs! An air selectable locker is safer on snow and ice: if both rear tires are locked the rear likes to step out under power on ice. So force unlocked at speed.

I’ve owned multiple vehicles with selectable rear lockers and I couldn’t disagree more. I’d never take a 2wd with a locker over a 4wd with open diffs. As mentioned, there is no lateral traction on snow/ice with a locked differential, unlike a 4wd with open diffs.

Aside from being a dumb young kid goofing off, using the locker in 2wd was not the better option over 4wd, nor was it more capable. There is a reason most OEM’s with a rear locker restrict the use to 4wd.

If I owned a 2wd truck, not sure why I ever would, I wouldn’t hesitate to sell it for a 4x4 in the OP’s scenario. No matter what you do to a 2wd it’s still a 2wd and that’s more of an issue than cost for me.

Driving up a winding road in snow/ice with a 2wd and a locker is a recipe for disaster, regardless of the tires you have on or what your weight distribution is.

 

[BigPapa]

I’ve owned multiple vehicles with selectable rear lockers and I couldn’t disagree more. I’d never take a 2wd with a locker over a 4wd with open diffs. As mentioned, there is no lateral traction on snow/ice with a locked differential, unlike a 4wd with open diffs.

I couldn't agree more with this statement. My '98 had a LSD rear. It was useless in snow and ice, loaded or unloaded. It doesn't matter which way your truck is headed, on snow or ice the rear end is going downhill. VERY few roads are level. With the torque applied to the rear wheels with these trucks right off idle, it's near impossible to not spin the rears when taking off. The only time the LSD helped me was on gravel up-hills and for ultimate traction, drag racing, on dry pavement.

 

[slowmover]

lol, not so sure about that.

The first pickup was produced by Ford in 1925. Aftermarket 4x4 conversions were first offered in 1935, and Dodge had the first factory 4x4 option in 1946. All domestic pickups were available in 4x4 in the late 1950’s.

Except never common until the early 1980s. Before that, seeing one was rare. OD Auto Trans plus computer control spark and fuel meant reasonable mpg. Before that FE was abysmal and it was corporations or government had most to be seen. A 50% change in fuel burn. Gasoline hasn’t been cheap since the early 1960s. It’s gone up relative to inflation since 1971 and has never come back to what it was.

Add in bad tires and bad highway suspension.

Seen any turbine-powered trains, trucks or cars? No one can afford them, privately, unless heavily subsidized despite obvious advantages.

A pickup is an on-road vehicle. Paved or unpaved. An empty bed and low traction tires are the usual excuse for “gotta have 4WD”. Not to mention applying brainpower.

The OP wants to spend a bundle, it’s his to spend. He hesitates, it’s far easier to experiment first. 4WD won’t fix fundamental problems noted if already present.

.

 

[AH64ID]

Except never common until the early 1980s. Before that, seeing one was rare. OD Auto Trans plus computer control spark and fuel meant reasonable mpg. Before that FE was abysmal and it was corporations or government had most to be seen. A 50% change in fuel burn. Gasoline hasn’t been cheap since the early 1960s. It’s gone up relative to inflation since 1971 and has never come back to what it was.

Add in bad tires and bad highway suspension.

Seen any turbine-powered trains, trucks or cars? No one can afford them, privately, unless heavily subsidized despite obvious advantages.

A pickup is an on-road vehicle. Paved or unpaved. An empty bed and low traction tires are the usual excuse for “gotta have 4WD”. Not to mention applying brainpower.

The OP wants to spend a bundle, it’s his to spend. He hesitates, it’s far easier to experiment first. 4WD won’t fix fundamental problems noted if already present.

.

You didn't say common, you said option.... you can back pedal and change your tune, but that's not really relevant to your misinformation or was it disinformation in another attempt to tell the users of TDR we are spending our own money wrong?

Who is talking about fuel economy, this is a thread about the OP needing to get a 4x4 truck for his use.

A 2wd doesn't hold a candle to a 4wd, on or off pavement, when traction is low... regardless of loading, weight, tires, air pressure, and rear axle traction devices, period. None of that helps the OP out, so if you don't have anything to assist him in finding a 4x4 stay out of the thread.

 

[bcbender]

I've owned many of both types... but I would never own a CTD truck without 4wd, just to many situations where traction on the front axles is needed and even stuck or slipping a few times makes it worth the investment. Alas if you never encounter ice, snow, and never go off pavement, I can understand 2wd, makes sense if just pulling loads back and forth on the highway to pin a badge on your lapel for "best mileage"... But that flys out the window when your stuck in the front yard nose down on wet grass..

 

[tjm]

I've owned many of both types... but I would never own a CTD truck without 4wd, just to many situations where traction on the front axles is needed and even stuck or slipping a few times makes it worth the investment. Alas if you never encounter ice, snow, and never go off pavement, I can understand 2wd, makes sense if just pulling loads back and forth on the highway to pin a badge on your lapel for "best mileage"... But that flys out the window when your stuck in the front yard nose down on wet grass..

Amen to that. Ive been stuck on wet grass in 2WD mode on my 4x4, back wheels just spin (stock tires). extra weight up front and pull from the front axle works all the time

 

[Jim Marrs]

Welcome

Off road, or just off-pavement?

Icy is a bad idea with a TT in every case.

Steep gravel is the only one to solve.

RWD needs traction at the rear not compromised by being too light. Payload. The TT doesn’t suffice as technically it is not payload. TW is just a shorthand reference for a more complicated rendering of forces exerted by the long lever from hitch ball to TT axle center. TW changes in every foot of travel. 1,100-lb TW is not the same as an equivalent bed load. Under power with a near empty bed it could decrease to under 100-lbs. Even go negative, lifting the Drive Axle.

“Empty” is with 500# in bed. Fuel mileage is otherwise lower as the rear axle hasn’t sufficient force to keep it planted under power.

Does “steep gravel” as a difficulty include with 500-1,000# or more in bed without the trailer? Tested in different ways (angle of attack, approach speed, etc?) Tire design and tread pattern sufficient?

Setting up a WD hitch involves getting traction problems lowered. Not to mention that steering & braking are better (verified on a weight scale). This betters total traction, but fewer than 10% ever get it right.

Not saying 4WD wouldn’t be easier. PA can be difficult off major highways or Interstate, no question. It’s a trade-off in far higher long and short term cost, however. Expect for budgeting that the norm with used 4WD examples is that they were abused along the way. Then, that the Auto Trans will need a major rebuild.

It’s traction that’s the problem, not the number of driving wheels. Class 5, 6, 7, and 8 get around without AWD, remember. All year.

Solve that first (consistently high ground pressure per tire) and what you really need versus want will more clearly distinguish themselves as separate.

I agree about heading back south to find a substitute if testing proves it worthwhile to your satisfaction. It may be that the gravel problem can be dealt with. Pickup trucks got around PA a whole lot longer without 4WD than they have with it as an option.

FWIW, Texas is the easiest state in the Union to operate a truck. No competition. Every other state has exceptions which whittle things down. You may think you’ve slowed sufficiently in PA — the mental planning challenges, not just average speed — but dollars to donuts the adaptation still has a ways to go.

On average, Texas drivers lack discipline brought by exigent difficulties. I’ve learned this hard way a few times as a truck driver out of Texas.

Good luck.

.

Thanks for the relevant and thoughtful reply.

I seasonally kept 400-560 lbs of tube sand in my truck bed centered over the rear axle. It’s with that sand in place that I recently lost traction coming up my steep gravel driveway upon return from a trip pulling the trailer. I typically remove the tube sand in the later Spring and return it in the Fall. Should I increase how much sand I carry? Should I carry it all the time? I get pretty good fuel efficiency either way.

I believe I manage my TW properly, but it’s challenging without regular access to a truck scale. Any recommendations for measuring/better management without truck scale?

 

[CVR222NV]

I believe some of us operate in environments where not having 4WD is simply out of the question. Although I must say open differentials and 4WD leaves a lot to be desired when the going gets tough. Adding aftermarket differentials to a 4WD resolve that deficiency at the possible cost of some bad manners with lockers. There are further options like TruTracs that seem to be the best of both worlds (open when not seeded). Finally, chains on all four corners for maximum traction when dealing with ice and deep snow. In those conditions 2WD is just not practical.

 

[Jim Marrs]

I couldn't agree more with this statement. My '98 had a LSD rear. It was useless in snow and ice, loaded or unloaded. It doesn't matter which way your truck is headed, on snow or ice the rear end is going downhill. VERY few roads are level. With the torque applied to the rear wheels with these trucks right off idle, it's near impossible to not spin the rears when taking off. The only time the LSD helped me was on gravel up-hills and for ultimate traction, drag racing, on dry pavement.

Gravel uphill is the only problem I’ve encountered as I wouldn’t DREAM of driving this truck in snow or ice. It appears manual or air locking rear may be a solution.

 

[Jim Marrs]

I’m new to Turbo Diesel Register and am looking for assistance. Moved from Texas to Pennsylvania and need to swap my trusty 2003 RAM 2500 24V Cummins Turbo Diesel, 6-Speed Manual
VIN: 3D7KA28C43G797097

…for a RAM 2500-3500 Cummins Turbo Diesel with automatic transmission with at least 10K lb tow capacity. I’m pulling an 8,000 lb travel trailer in sometimes icy conditions on steep roads and my 2WD, while terrific on the highway, isn’t cutting it off road or on steep gravel.

Any recommendations on best course of action?

Y’all have been great! I truly appreciate your interest and comments, I’m learning a good bit. I’m going to adjust a few things with my present truck while I look for a deal on a replacement 4WD Turbo Diesel, short bed, automatic transmission. Any recommendations for where to look?

 

[AH64ID]

Gravel uphill is the only problem I’ve encountered as I wouldn’t DREAM of driving this truck in snow or ice. It appears manual or air locking rear may be a solution.

Don’t waste your time or money. A locked rear is not a safe solution for a 2wd truck in snow or ice.

 

[petersonj]

I believe I manage my TW properly, but it’s challenging without regular access to a truck scale. Any recommendations for measuring/better management without truck scale?

A trailer tongue scale is your friend. I use one periodically for setting up initial tongue weight for specific trailer loads.

Also (you didn't mention), but if you are using a weight distribution hitch, you can relieve the tension on the tension bars to place more weight on the truck drive axle while negotiating your steep driveway.

-John

- John

 

[slowmover]

You didn't say common, you said option.... you can back pedal and change your tune, but that's not really relevant to your misinformation or was it disinformation in another attempt to tell the users of TDR we are spending our own money wrong?

Who is talking about fuel economy, this is a thread about the OP needing to get a 4x4 truck for his use.

A 2wd doesn't hold a candle to a 4wd, on or off pavement, when traction is low... regardless of loading, weight, tires, air pressure, and rear axle traction devices, period. None of that helps the OP out, so if you don't have anything to assist him in finding a 4x4 stay out of the thread.

Man, you’re full of it. Used to be helpful years ago. Fall far short of it now.

I’ve taken trucks in the oilfield, not AWD, where I guess you’d piss your pants. Hub-high mud. 2WD DRW & trailers loaded to 32k then Pete’s and other tractors with heavy loads. Can’t see the road for the water. Not every driver made it.

Been all over this country far more than you’ll ever go with non-4WD in every weather imaginable.

The OP may wish to ck fundamentals as noted. His single problem is steep gravel as he stated. The rest of what I wrote stands as is. Do some testing.

4WD wasn’t common. At all. Yet America somehow got built without it. You cite Wikipedia, I was there.

The load on a tire is fundamental. Called, “ground pressure”. An empty truck — any kind — is the one that gets into trouble with traction.

4WD is great for getting started. That’s about it.

Do yourself a favor and block my posts. There’s nothing you’ve said has helped the OP take apart and analyze what his current truck can and cannot do.

You don’t care about expense. Maybe he does.

.