Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) New ATS installed commander won't unlock at lower setting

[Bullmarket]

I just recently had an ATS transmission, valve body and commander installed on my 96 2500. I have had to make a couple of trips back to Southern Truck parts in Georgia because the commander first wasn't wired correctly and then suspected a bad box and now I find out that it will not unlock if it is in the two slowest settings so they are not usable. The people with ATS told my installer that my truck is programmed for California. This problem is noted on the installation book that came with the controller. Since I purchased this truck new in Georgia I am somewhat confused as to whether anyone else has encountered this problem. While I have been very pleased with the service I have received from Southern Truck and I am also happy with the transmission, I am somewhat not happy that I am not able to take advantage of the full benefit of spending the extra money for the ATS valve body and especially the controller that only does about 50 percent of what it is supposed to do. Before I called ATS directly, I wanted to find out if anyone else has encountered this problem.

 

[CATCRACKER]

you can always for $2 rig up your own switch and control the converter like you want. all that bos is doing is grounding a switch to lock and unlock the converter. that is what i have done and i love it! it would have saved you $500 and lots of headaches. but my way is kind of a pain but i like it.

 

[SRehberg]

I don't have an electronic controller on my '96, but I just went through the issue of the PCM latching on and not releasing the T/C. I installed the Mystery Switch and this is when the problems began. Per the TST site, they state some early '96's require a PCM upgrade (reflash). Some of the members on the TDR stated the samething. For some reason the '96's needed the PCM software upgraded. I had the reflash done and now the T/C performs as it should. Before I couldn't do much with it, and it would chug to a stop like a standard transmission and not depressing the clutch pedal while stopping. My truck was mfg'd in Oct or Nov of '96.



Whether an electronic controller or the manual switch, the function is still the same. Try the reflash. 1/2hr. charge at the dealer.

 

[Andy Redmond]

Been there done that with my friend inarush76 (the southwest DTT guru). A repair or reman pcm will fix you up. Try the reflash as its the cheapest thing. .



We've had a Mexico and a Saint Louis built (Texas ordered trucks) do this (1996). Swapped another PCM and it works great. . so the blame the California deal is bogus. We even traced the pcm numbers with an anal rentive friend thats a Mopar parts tech. They were both "Federal emmisions" or non-California PCMs. .



"It's like that I forgot and left my "manual lockup" switch on. . Key off, then key on cycle then all is well until it locks up again, then it won't unlock, right?"





Its not that the PCM is bad, just has some tolerance issue (s)before its going to throw a code to let you know its outta tolerance. Sounds like you found a gremlin that only the aftermarket device doesn't like. . wish the aftermarket guys had a way to make it a bit less sensitive and so it would speak to the pcm and communicate properly. On another front, one customer complained of the classic TPS lock unlock issue, the PCM replacement cured this complaint as well. .



Sorry for the bad news. . don't shoot me.



Any electrical (PCM/electronics) rebuilders that can repair a perfectly good pcm with this fault?



Andy

 

[Bullmarket]

Thanks for all the great advice, I believe I will call AST, and the people at Southern Truck parts, and then will try the reflash. The tech at Southern truck looked up my truck and found out that it was also built in St. Louis, which made me kinda not give too much faith in the California story. After my first post I decided to get out the installation papers and re-read the California disclaimer. They state:



TRANSMISSION QUIRKS:

On some 1999 and up Dodge trucks that are programmed with California emissions the commander module will set a diagnostic trouble code for insufficient converter slip. The best way around this known condition is to raise the commander engagement set speed above 42 mph during acceleration.



My truck is a 96 but I suppose the person at ATS just figured it was a good out to blame it on California. Which I suppose I can understand since you don't have too look hard to find problems to blame on California. LOL But as not to offend any of our fellow members of whom ALL are a huge asset to California, I'll stop there.



I'm really surprised that ATS doesn't know that a reflash may fix the problem instead of the work around which isn't much of a work around. Like the Henny Youngman one linner - Doctor it hurst when I do this, Then Don't do that!



I'll post the results.

 

[y-knot]

I don't think there is anything wrong with your Commander unit. You complain about it not unlocking at the lowest two levels, and I think the problem is the fact that your truck has the 3:54 ring and pinion gears. When you set it at the lowest speeds, you are asking it to lock the TC and stay in 3rd or 4th gear which ever you have selected(by way of OD in or out). The lowest settings on the Cammander unit are about 17MPH, with you in OD and the TC locked, the truck will idle faster then the lowest several settings. This means the truck never goes under the setting, which causes the TC to stay locked. I know the feeling of coming to a stop and having the TC stay locked! The Commander is not at fault, it is working within it's parameter. just you have a very high gear and it causes the problem. I have a 4:11 R&P, so my engine truns more RPM and it does not effect me as much.

The mystery switch is a bad ideal, I do not like it and feel that it is a saftey concern. It has no parameters of use and is in my oppinion bad for the transmission.

 

[rrausch]

I agree about the Mystery Switch being a hazard with the ATS TripleLok. The reason being that that TripleLok won't slip! So if you forget to unlock it and come to a stop you'll most likely bend the flex-plate. I had a Mystery Switch on mine before I got my ATS Stage IV, and I forgot to unlock it a few times while coming to a stop. Luckily I was running the stock trans at the time, and all it did was slip the T. C. clutch a bit. But when I got my ATS Clint explained the problem to me, and I asked them to take the M. S. out and install the Commander. I love mine. I have a '95 Cal. truck and it works great. I'd go with ATS again in a heartbeat!



These trucks are very complicated. I would call ATS and ask for Mike or Clint or Jeff and tell them what is happening. They are a great company, and stand behind their products.

 

[Bullmarket]

I don't have a mystery switch, I have an ATS stage 4 that doesn't work correctly.

 

[SRehberg]

I wouldn't think the ring and pinion ratio have anything to do with the controller. The controller works off the vehicle speed sensor which has no idea which ratio is in the rear. The Mystery switch is only as good as the operator and is subject to operator error, so the controller removes that worry. I personally have the switch at the moment and have been happy with it for the time short time I have had it installed. I only want it for locking the T/C for downhill exhaust braking.

 

[y-knot]

You guy's don't get it..... Of coarse the Commander unit doesn't need to know what size ring and pinnion gear you have, but it will affect how the truck runs, which affects how the Commander works.



Here's what's happening... . You have the Commander set at it's lowest settings, this is somewhare around 17 MPH.



You are also complaining about it not un-locking the TC when you come to a stop.



Your truck with it's high 3:54 rear gear, will Idle faster then 17MPH when the TC is locked and the truck in held in overdrive.



Here is the sequence



You are rolling down the road, Commander on and set at lowest setting (17MPH), the TC is locked in, and the transmission is in OD. Everything is fine, the light turns red up ahead and you begin to slow by lifting off the go pedal. The foot switch senses the pedal is at idle and tells the Commander to turn on the exhaust brake. The Commander does so, and then is waiting on the speed buffer to send the matching speed signal that matches the setting selected,this case 17MPH. As the truck slows and gets closer to it's stop, the Commander is waiting for the right signal to come so it can un-lock the TC and turn off the exhaust brake. The signal never comes, because the truck never getts slow enough to send the right signal. With the truck at idle,TC locked up and in OD, it will idle faster then the lowest setting, which makes for a rough time when in traffic. Our automatics are exactly like a manual transmission when the TC is locked. It would be no different then someone taking there truck placing it in 5th or 6th gear, leaving the clutch engaged and trying to stop at the light. It just doesn't work very well.



My truck has a 4:11 gear, this affects my rpm to speed ratio. It takes more rpm to go any simular MPH. So when I role to the same stop as in the above sinareio, my trucks idle speed is less the yours in with the 3:54 gears. Which allows my truck's Commander to dis-engage , where yours will not. With the TC locked and in OD, at idle your truck will travel say 20 MPH, mine say 16 MPH. Yours never get below the 17 MPH sitting, so it can not dis-engage. The Commander is fine.

 

[SRehberg]

Y-knot:



I think there is a flaw in your reasoning, especially the rpm with 4. 10 gears vs. 3. 54 gears coming to a stop. The 4. 10 gears are going to give your engine a HIGHER rpm than the gentleman with the 3. 54 gears rolling to stop locked up. This again has absolutely nothing to do with vehicle speed, the vehicle speed sensor is the input the controller is looking at. It doesn't care what ratio you have in the rear, only the speed input signal. When it "sees" 17mph (your example) it will respond, whether your truck is turning 2000rpm or 750rpm. The '96 trucks have a unique PCM issue on the early ones, and to work properly with either the Mystery Switch or a controller, need to be upgraded. Your sig states you have a '97 which does not need the upgraded software, so it doesn't affect your commander. i. e. yours works.

 

[Bullmarket]

Y-not



I'm not sure if this will change your theory but I don't have an exhaust brake. I haven't personally tried the commander at the 2 lowest settings, Im just taking the transmission guys word for it. The way he described it, there was a lot of shaking going on and that's one of the reasons that I want it fixed since I'm afraid that by accident it will get set on one of the 2 lowest settings and my wife may be driving and cause something seriously to break. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who have the same set up as I with the ATS and 3:54 auto that don't have this problem. It seems to me that if it were the 3:54 gears causing the problem that everybody with this set up would have the same problem, not just me.

 

[y-knot]

I put the exhaust brake in there as an example, it has nothing to do with your problem, just works off the same set of signals.



Yes it will shake when the Tc does not un-lock, and it is a real damger to both you and others on the road. Your truck can also be damaged very quickly by this action, so be carefull.

I will give up trying to explain gears and there relationship to rpm and speed, it's obvious others don't understand, nor will I be able to convey this relationship via the web in a manor that they might comprehend. Good luck with your new ATS transmission and Commander control unit. Next time you experiance a problem, try working it out with the manufacturer first before posting negatively about the product. ATS and most other manufacturers that advertise on the TRD offer quality products and usually handle these type situations fairly and in a timely manner. You are upset about your Commander not un-locking on two of it's lowest settings, this is a far cry from the 50% un-usable claim you cited. The automatic transmission is in and working, the TC is oviously working, and so is the Commander unit, though you have a problem with it's lowest two settings. Give your mechanic, and ATS time to react to the situation. Good luck

 

[ChadHarlan]

I run the commander right in the middle. I find that is the best setting for me in the city. Now if I move it all the way to the left, the lowest setting, It feels like it is going to kill the truck at a stop. If you feel that you still have a defective commander module, just give us a call monday mornig and we can send you anther one out.

 

[SRehberg]

Y-Knot, I am not trying to be argumentive here, it is a fairly straight ahead understanding of gear ratio to engine rpm. i. e. the higher numerically the gears, the greater the rpm of the engine at a given speed. That is pretty basic. I think the original problem was the T/C not unlocking and what was causing it with the ATS controller. Your suggestion to contact ATS is good advice but I don't think the author was trying to be negative in his post. The TDR forums are the most informative resource available, and I would probably have asked the same question. A lot of members are running a lot of different equipment and have already solved problems such as this, so it seems reasonable to ask. The beauty of the forums is all the different ideas and opinions that lead us to the same conclusion; enjoyment of our trucks. Thanks for all the insight and I look forward to sharing ideas with you in the future.

 

[Bullmarket]

y-knot



In my first post I stated that I am very pleased with the service of the installer and that I am pleased with the ATS transmission. But after spending almost $6,000 and to be told that I can't use the slowest 2 of settings of the commander is not an appealing ending of a fairly expensive story. I still feel that since the commander has I believe 5 settings and I can't use the lowest two, to me that is very close to 50% of the settings on the controller that I can't use. If everybody that drives a truck with a 3:54 rear end has this problem then I can deal with that, If everybody that has a 4x4 has this problem I can deal with that. But if no one else has this problem then I want to know why. The tech at ATS said it was a California problem then it is my responsiblilty to try to understand and verify that. The installation booklet states 99 and up California programmed trucks, mine is a 96 not a 99. It just seemed a little too convienient to me, which is why I wanted to get all the information that I could before I call and talk to them personally. Since I posted this problem there have been several people that have stated that they had a problem with the pcm, but It's hard to believe that ATS wouldn't have heard about this. If other people have had this problem and a reflash of the PCM fixed it then why wouldn't ATS know about this? If it is the 3:54 gear, surely ATS would have seen this problem before and they would have a disclaimer regarding the gear ratio and would have stated this. These are things that I can ask ATS when I talk to them. If I call them all stupid about this problem, it is very likely I will get the same old California problem answer. Maybe the transmission guy talked to someone new, but an answer of too bad your truck just won't do that is not adequate. I believe that ATS is the best out there, that is why I purchased it and that is why I won't accept anything less than the best. If I bought middle of the road than I'll settle for middle of the road, If I buy the best, that is what I want. Thank you for you input and help.

 

[LHallmark]

Y-Knot. . Your right on... ... .

SRehberg... . Your analysis of gear ratio and engine rpm is exactly right... as far as it goes. At any given engine rpm the 3. 54 truck will move at a higher mph than the 4. 10 truck. SO at idle, (750 rpm ) the 4. 10 truck will move SLOWER than the 3. 54 truck. If the actual speed of the truck is greater than +- 17mph at idle, the commander will remain locked up... . IE 3. 54 gears. If the speed at idle is less than +- 17 mph... . IE 4. 10 gears, the commander will unlock.

At low speed the lockup acts just like a manual transmission without the clutch engaged. This is precisely why when my wife drives the truck the e-brake and the commander are turned off... ... she doesn't mind driving but she does not want to "operate" the truck.

When I reach town I set my lockup for about 30mph and shift to 2nd gear... ... I get good speed control, engine breaking, and good transmission cooling cause the T/C is locked up a lot. If you stayed in 3rd or OD you would be lugging the engine the whole time you're in town, IF THE COMMANDER IS ON.

 

[rrausch]

Bullmarket, no offense but why don't you just CALL THEM AND TALK TO THEM! Guys here have their guesses, me included, but Clint or Mike or Jeff at ATS know more about these trucks and the ATS than everybody here put together. If you want to solve this problem talk to someone who can solve it! Call em! Ask for Clint or Mike.

 

[Bullmarket]

Geez stopy your yelling, I'm going to call them but heck they're not open on weekends so figured I'd just try to get some kinda idea if anyone but me had this problem. Everyone else asks questions on here so I figured I could too. Have to go now and yell at the rest of the members and tell them to call the dealer and ask them and to leave this forum alone. LOL



GOOD DAY

 

[y-knot]

Even on my truck with the 4:11 gears, if I set the commmander at it's lowest setting, and leave the OD on it will have a hard time un-locking. The lowest setting, is right on the threshold of my idle speed during lock-up. If I have a long gradual stop, it will work. But if i have to stop quickly, the box gets confused and will not un-luck.

I am sorry that the fellow that installed your ATS components did not have a better explanation for what you are experiancing, he is paid to install things not customer relations. You did make a great choice by buying ATS, they have a well founded reputation for strength and survivability. Yes they are costly, but there are other brands that cost much more, and do not give any added features. Hopefully after you recover from this bill, you will add a exhaust brake, they are so nice words turely can not convey the feeling ownership brings.

My wife also does not want to pilot a ship, just drive the truck. It is very hard for people that do not understand the full mechanics of the system, to drive and do so comfortabily. It would be wise to turn the added systems off, or at least set them on the higher settings where they should be worry free.

The Commander is smart enough to always start the truck with the OD off, this happens automaticly and is a safety feature. This helps prevent troblems if someone forgot and left the setting selector on the lower settings. I like to leave the OD off while in town, or in stop and go situations, this keeps the OD from making wasted shifts, and allows you to use the brake. It takes some time to get use to the truck with the ATS set-up, the stock TC was very mushy and shifts were weeker. The fact that the Commander will keep the TC locked, makes it hard at times. The truck is in 4th gear and TC lock during slow traffic conditions, which makes acceleration slow and smoke heavy. The transmission will down shift quickly if you press hard on the fuel pedal, but this is much different then stock and takes some time to get use to, and or avoid. I do like haveing the smoke screen ready and avilable for use, it works wonders on tailgaters and convertables .