New BD automatic transmission amd injectors rocks.........

[jtek]

Last week I had Walker diesel (Houston TX) install a complete crate BD auto transmission with the TQ lock and pressureloc along with upgraded Bosh injectors.
This is in addition to the #5 TST plate, 16cm turbo housing and 4 inch exhaust from the turbo back that I have been runing.
I must say oh boy it like a new truck with a better transmission & injectors.
It is scary good, to have such a large amount of moving mass driving 80 then have some more omff to pass some small modified Honda Civic is a hoot... ... .

A few question though:
Is there anyone else running the BD torqlock converter control without a exaust brake.
I do not see any change during Acc/Dec with the toggle switch in lock up mode (red LED on) Maybe it is miss wired.

I noticed now that the EGT can get up to 1400 Deg as before it would only get to 1200 deg.
Is this because the larger injectors giving more fuel thus creating more heat.
The boost is still 32 PSI but now I have to be more careful with the EGT. How can this get lower.

Also for my 95 what would be the next practical upgrade besides propane or engine head work being done.
I plan on keeping the ole mechanical 5. 9 for a while.

Thanks
Alan Dobbs
Surgar Land TX

 

[Bill Kondolay]

I am glad you like your package, a word of advice , do not use the torque loc, if you choose to do so you may as well ask Walker Diesel to order you another tc and transmission.

Not god himself can prevent that transmission from premature failure if you use the torque loc.

It is one of the most destructive devices ever designed and sold, as long as you are aware of the concequences of forcing the tc clutch to stay locked up by using the torque loc and longevity is not a priority for you.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[jtek]

What is the disadvantage of the BD Torqloc
-vs- the mystery switch that several others use to lock up the TQ ?

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Most guys installing the mystery switch are primarily using it for their exhaust brake applications and they are generally aware of the concequences.

Most guys that by the torque loc believe they are buying a fully automated system, they trust the company selling and installing these products to be honest and forthright about the conveniences vs the concequences.

Generally the guys installing their own mystery switches are more mechanically inclined than those that install the torque loc. My point is , that a lot of the guys running the torque loc are victims of marketing. Now let me guess at the speech you probably heard.

Once you get on the highway you just flick into the red position and you are good to go.

What you have done in essence by flicking that switch into the red position is signed the death sentance for that transmission.

Mechanically what you are doing is forcing that converter to stay locked up, you have eliminated passing gear, and eliminated the pcm's ability to unlock the converter at any throttle position.

On a typical standard transmission in your year of truck , the clutch disc has 180 square inches of clutch surface area, compared to your 67 sqauare inches of clutch lining. Now while there may be debate as to how much hp it takes to slip a standard clutch , lets say between 275-300hp, where guys can slip their standard clutches, i beiieve the aftermarket clutches claim they can handle 400hp,

Now if a standard clutch can slip the clutch with 180square inches of lining, what chance does your 67 square inches of clutch lining have with your hp and the torque loc keeping the converter clutch forced to stay locked up.

Ultimately the choice is yours on who you want to beieve, this issue has been well debated on this website,
you may want to do a search on this under torque loc, you might find some interesting reading.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[John_P]

Alan:

My 96' Dodge CTD is "similarily" equipped
to yours, however, I do not have a "Torque
Loc" or mystery switch on my transmission.
I do have a "Pressure Loc" though.

I would say that your next "priority"
should be an HX-40/16 turbo. I am getting
ready to do that to mine. All indications
from the "experts" is that it should add
about 25 H. P.

--------
John_P

------------------
Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Major Pump Mods(By "Scheid Diesel") 370 Diamond B Injectors, Gov. Spring kit, AFC Spring kit, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit,Psychotty Air Filter, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, BD Pressure Loc, Isspro Gauges, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

[jtek]

I guess this is diffrent than just the 16cm turbo housing.

 

[John]

Anyone searching for a used TorqLoc can purchase mine (pre auto inversion model). I will let it go $75. (including shipping)... that is, if you agree NOT wire it up so you can MANUALLY lock the TCC as Bill described above (I want to be able to sleep nights knowing I didn't set someone up). BTW, this includes almost all essentials including installation instructions.

[This message has been edited by John (edited 04-16-2001). ]

 

[John_P]

gulfcmt:

Yes, the HX-40/16 is alot different than
a 16cm housing on a HX-35. The HX-40 is
installed on the 8. 3 Cummins engine. It
is a larger turbo which flows alot more
air than the HX-35.

-------
John_P

 

[rich m]

Originally posted by Bill Kondolay:
Most guys installing the mystery switch are primarily using it for their exhaust brake applications and they are generally aware of the concequences.


Once you get on the highway you just flick into the red position and you are good to go.

What you have done in essence by flicking that switch into the red position is signed the death sentance for that transmission.

Gee, Bill, why don't you tell us how you really feel. It's a tool, not a self-destruct device. Like any tool, misuse/mis-understanding can be harmful.

Having said that:

--BD's "auto-loc" is a more pleasant product.
it has a setting "green light glowing" for use with the exhaust brake. "red light" glowing is for use with or without exhaust brake.
I personally like the "green" setting, and have installed a pushbutton "clicker" switch on my gear-shift lever (velcro and zipties--a little crude, but everybody thinks it's for nitrous #ad
) (the remote switch is for my convenience, to prevent fumbling around for those knee-bolster switches)
My habit, to prevent breaking stuff, while also keeping the fluid temp low, is to drive w/ overdrive "locked-out" until truck has shifted to 3rd and gotten to 30mph. If the ECM hasn't locked the TC at that point, I lift off the throttle a little, and "click" the BD stuff "on". then I'm in 3-lock, and the BD brake will work, too, (it's "on" but in waiting mode until off the pedal entirely, when it activates)
When I get to 40-50mph, I again "lift" and punch O/D in. transmission shifts smoothly from 3-lock to 4-lock, just as if I'd had a manual and speedshifted (synchros only, w/out using clutch pedal--feels neat to do it that way, if you never have. )

I personally have never had the little 67 square inch surface slip, but I'm only at 250-ish, and haven't done any heavy towing.

I'll want BD's new TC and maybe their new valvebody before I go to any more power. Not so much because of slippage ('cuz I haven't had any) but due to better fluid-couple efficency. right now, my "stall" is at about 2400-2500rpms. that's already governer-limit #ad
... gotta go. .


------------------
mildly BOMBed 98. 4 1B7KF23D4WJxxxxxx-- BD's #5 plate and 210HP injectors--BD Brake and the associated transmission bomb goodies (except for TC,currently), 4" open exhaust (short),Psychotty, camper shell, Warn front receiver, G159Unisteels on Rickson 19. 5's. . CD player is bone stock, so are the seats. PrimeLoc, also remote spin-on filter for the auto trans... Pyro,Boost and Trans temp from Isspro,
Westin nerf rails(black),
bent welding rod to hang celphone on dashboard...
240HP on Dynojet from 75-105mph drumspeed.
calculated 721 lbft @ 1800rpm

 

[Bill Kondolay]

rich m,

By your own words we both agree on the fact that the torque loc in the red position is bad for your automatic transmission and tc.

Our opionions differ on whos responsible for the damage done once having used the torque loc if the consumer is not warned before hand.

If as you say this is just a tool, there is a disclaimer right? One warning the customer of the dangers should he use it in the red position, or is he supposed to magically know.

I feel that the mfg. and installer has a responsibility to tell the customer when the concequences are so grave.

There is absolutely no benefit to using the torque loc in the red position, and anyone stating otherwise obiously has a hidden agenda.

Like Mr. Dobbs has just spent 4000 having all these upgrades done, do you honestly think he should have to force his converter to stay locked up just to transfer the power?

Are you telling me he would know what would happen to it?

Who helps guys like this after the damage is done by this torque loc when they wernt even warned before hand.

Why dont you ask guys like Mike Crossley, Dennis Cochrane, Bob Neimi, Arlan, the list goes on and on.

I'll tell you who helps these guys , no body, they have to pay out of their own pocket.

Who's gonna even talk to these guys now that Piers is quitting BD and is gone by the end of the month?

Rich,Are you going to help pay ? So far BD has not paid.

While i guess there is the old saying buyer beware, that is a little hard to do when guys arent told the truth and trust the guys who are supposed to know.

I dont care if guys use the torque loc, as long as they are forwarned and choose to use it anyway, we are all grownups .

I dont much care if people hate me for my frankness, as long as there is no mis-understanding on how i feel about the damage these mystery switches and torque loc devices cause when used for excelleration purposes.

This is how i really feel, i believe that is what you wanted to know.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[Piers]

These are some of the directions that come with an Auto Loc or Torque Loc. And they do warn of the dangers of missuse.

The different functions of the AutoLoc and TorqLoc.

The difference between the AutoLoc and the TorqLoc is that the Torqloc will force the converter clutch to lock up & the Autoloc will only hold, an already locked up converter clutch. When you ask for an overdrive to third gear shift, the Torqloc doesn’t wait for the computer to lock up the clutch, it sends its own signal to the converter clutch, and as long as you are A) above the set speed and B) the transmission is hydraulically correct [ throttle pressure is applied] , the TorqLoc will force a lock up.
The AutoLoc cannot force a lock up only hold one on deceleration. The Chrysler transmission does not lock up in third gear, unless the overdrive is turned off. Also the Chrysler transmission won’t allow an overdrive to third gear downshift if the torque converter clutch is locked up. This holds true not matter what system you are using to hold the converter clutch locked up.

While driving with the overdrive turned off, and the AutoLoc is turned on, the transmission shifts from first to second to third, and then locks up. Anytime after the lock up has occurred and you take your foot off the accelerator, the AutoLoc will turn the exhaust brake on and hold the torque converter clutch locked until about 25mph when it will then turn off the torque converter clutch. When driving on the freeway in overdrive, the torque converter clutch will be locked up and the AutoLoc turned on, if you release the throttle the AutoLoc will apply the brake and hold the torque converter clutch locked up. To increase the amount of retarding horsepower, turn off the overdrive and the AutoLoc will sense this signal and cut the signal that’s holding the torque converter clutch applied, the transmission will then downshift into third gear. At this point you should apply throttle pressure until the factory computer says everything is okay and locks up the torque converter clutch. As soon as that happens you should remove throttle pressure and the AutoLoc will turn the exhaust brake on and keep the torque converter clutch applied until you get down to about the 25mph mark. The set speed is adjustable, one can set it for a higher mph, so you don’t have to worry about remembering to turn off the overdrive or lower if one has 4:10 gears.

Now suppose you’re driving along, overdrive is on, the AutoLoc is on and you need to make a stop or slow down, but don’t need the extra retarding horsepower of third gear or; you don’t have time to wait for the downshift, applying throttle and waiting for lockup, (this would all take about 4-6 seconds) and you don’t want the shuddering that would occur when you have a locked up torque converter clutch & you’re going to be doing less than 35 mph in overdrive. You can do any of the four following actions to cancel out the system: turn off the AutoLoc switch, turn off the overdrive, lightly step on the throttle pedal, or pull the gearshift lever down into second gear. Turning off the overdrive or the AutoLoc are the best of the four options.

Now enters the Torqloc, it should only be used under light throttle applications. No matter whose torque converter you are using, the converter clutch has only so much holding power & if you exceed this you will start to slip the clutch, thereby starting the demise of your converter clutch.

An example of when one would use the Torqloc position would be when one is on a winding road. Where one is on and off the throttle a lot & you don’t want to keep locking & unlocking the converter clutch. The Torqcloc will hold the converter clutch locked up, preventing that from happening.

You must keep in mind while doing this that if you apply too much throttle pressure, especially at the lower rpm band you may start to slip the converter clutch. A general rule of thumb when holding the converter clutch locked up is no more that 1 lb of boost for every 100 engine rpm.


My feelings are that most people should only have an Auto Loc, but like any tool, as long as it is used & not abused the Torque Loc does have a use.
And like you say Bill, as long as people are forwarned about how things work, the choice should be theirs to make, such as smoking or drinking, driving too fast, adding too much horse power #ad
, the list goes on.


------------------
Piers, BD engine R&D

 

[jtek]

Well Bill you still have not explained what & how you would build up the ultimate auto transmission to handle a modified Cummins engine to handle 1K of Ft/lb of TQ like several list members have.

We all know the best option is to rid the auto and put in a NV4500 manual box in its place.
This is not the best option for me because of the 4x4 shifter in place where the shifter would go and all the re-engineering to do to fit it in, besides all the stop & go traffic here in Houston would make my knee’s go out.

This is my 2nd transmission failure and the first one I had did not last not even a year.
I got screwed out of $2200 the first time because it was an all talk transmission shop that I soon realized afterwards they did not understand diesels & torque especially when towing.
The (Atlas Transmission in Stafford TX) supposed made a bullet proof TQ and adjusted the bands along with a list of new internals. Unknowing I was suckered in and got shafted in the long run. It may be the same in the future with this BD but the way I see it is a much larger corporation that if and when a warranty claim does happens there is much less bickering than a small mom pop shop trying to save their a$# and profit.

I opted for a complete built up auto built by BD because they are the only ones that are advertising a complete bolt in replacement that has been dyno tested already.
Originally I had planed a Dun rite TQ and a BD throttle body but for the time & labor to build up a properly set up transmission using basically my case only, I could not justify to so.
Also I feel I would be paying someone to put a band-aid over my busted transmission using some of my original parts that have close to 200K hard miles on them.
Since I do know my internals of the transmission were shot because when the transmission did blow it made a very loud mechanical grinding noise and left me stranded along the road.
I figure the splines sheared of on the input shaft because it would make a ratcheting noise when trying to go in reverse, 1st, or 2nd. Just thinking where all those metallic shavings went thorough the transmission a rebuild would not last.

BD gives a warranty for 1 year or 24,000 miles guaranteed up to 300 HP.
The other transmission shop I used before only gave a 6 month 12,000 but I knew the day I picked it up it would not last because the TQ slipped ever so slightly form day one.

The BD transmission and extras is so far is better than the other transmissions.

I just wanted to ask others on the list who are using the Torqloc and how it functions.
Sure it may cause damage to the transmission but isn’t it about the same as running your engine at 1400 deg at 34 PSI boost and burning your pistons. When we modify anything there are major consequences we have to understand and foresee.

I do know a bit about the workings of my ram since it is my work truck for me as I service CNC machine tools (mechanically and electrically) for a living.
I would have installed it myself, but it is more economical for me to have a shop install it.

Alan Dobbs

95 4x4, 4:10 posi 4. 5 lift & 37 inch Hummer tires. pillar gauges, hydraulic steering and beefed linkage. & 500 pounds of tools in the back toolbox.

 

[danandamy]

When I first joined the TDR I didn't have a 'puter. I was reading in the magazine about the mystery switch (basically same thing as torqueloc). I thought about wiring it into my truck but my gut feeling kept telling me not to. After discovering this web site, I am definitly glad I didn't do that. The secret to a transmission that can hold the power? In my opinion, it would be a transmission that had a converter in it that was efficient enough to not need lock up at all except when cruising on flat level ground at even throttle. In fact, it should be efficient enough that you could wire in an "unlock" mystery switch to keep the converter unlocked if you're hammering it under full throttle for a short period of time. Hmmmmm. I only know of one guy who has one of those #ad


Daniel

 

[Driftwood Ram]

danandme
I think there are a few of us out here that have "one of those" #ad
#ad
#ad
Check Signature

------------------
96 2500 4x4 Driftwood auto DTT TC & VB Smart Controller Pac Brake Stan's 4" exhaust turbo to tail Warn 4x boards pyro,boost,trans temp on a piller, mag hytec trans pan, Reese 15k 5th wheel hitch Pulling 200 Alfa Ideal 31RL



[This message has been edited by TRACY MURPHY (edited 04-19-2001). ]

 

[John]

You got that right Tracy!

------------------
John Treibel
'98. 5 2500 QC 4x4 Sport, Glasstite Vision II, 285 BFG A/Ts on M/T Challengers, Warn 4X Boards, Mopar fender flares & tow hooks, NW Custom s/s-rubber mud flaps and accs. , Mag-Hytec diff. cover & DD trans. pan, Edelbrock IAS shocks, Reese Titan V hitch, SPA gauges (3), Dynamat, '00 Sport grille and headlights/PIAA Super White bulbs, PIAA Dual Sport 900 aux. lights, BD exh. brake, Amsoil Dual Remote Bypass w. trick billet block adapter and Aeroquip Teflon-s/s hoses, Optima Yellow Tops, DD3s and DD TTPM, Aeroquip AQP s/s fuel hoses, tricked out Cummins valve cover, tricked out Banks High-Ram intake manifold and 14 cm2 turbine housing w/Big Head wastegate actuator, ATS 3-piece exh. man. , Banks 4" dia. s/s exh. sys. , DTT 93% TC, DTT custom tuned VB, BD modified trans. front pump (enhanced by DTT), Air Bulldog induction hood (with NACA ducts), plus MANY other trick modifications

NRA Life (Patron) member

 

[Strick-9]

Piers,

That is one way of doing it. But I chose to tap into my TPS sensor. I feel this is a better way of solving the problem. When I am cruising around town with my TC locked up, I can immediately unlock my TC by pressing the go pedal. This allows the engine to rev up several hundred rpms which helps build boost quicker. To me, this is the most useful reason for having the box.

Your way is electrically much simpler though.

I just wanted to share other ways of tackling the problem.

-Chris

 

[SlyBones]

Nice write up above, Piers. I have an EBrake/AutoLoc on my future shopping list. So for the transmission/AutoLoc impared ( me ), I gotta ask the dumb questions.

Crusing along on freeway, and I lift the throttle. AutoLoc engages Brake and holds lockup. I get to about 40MPH and now traffic is picking up again. I add throttle. At this point does the autoloc release its hold on lockup and allow the transmission to downshift, accelerate, etc. the way the stock would have?

I am assuming here the 35mph shutter mentioned happens because the engine speed in OD is too low, and the autoloc has not kicked out yet. Kinda like forgetting to push in the clutch while in 5th or 6th. Next guess is the 25mph kickout speed is set for 3rd lockup when the engine speed is higher and you can run lower road speed before hitting the engine speed problem.

So my question is why doesnt an autoloc have 2 kickout speeds. One for OD and one for 3rd. If the the transmission will not lockup in third unless the OD is turned off, then it seems like you only need to know the position of this switch. Pushed in 25, out 35. Both of course, would be adjustable.

Seems like this would be safer for the transmission, the driver does not have to remember to save the transmission when the shutter starts happening, its done for them by the higher kickout speed. If the driver is needs that extra 10mph breaking they can use the OD button to get it. -- Seems like the current design in OD, gives extra 10mph at the cost of making me remember to shut this off all the time or harming the transmission. -- Without having one and using one, my poor little brain thinks, save the equipment, and make them request the additional 10 mph braking when needed.

Next is how does the autoloc know when the throttle is lifted and to engage the brake and hold lockup? Is it tapped into the TPS like someone mentioned above?

I understand the current autoloc does not engage lockup it only holds an existing one. But... it seems to me we somehow know throttle position, whether or not the transmission is already in lockup, and the OD switch position, etc. Seems like we have the information we need to detemine if the driver is pressing the OD button to gain additional retarding power. Maybe a delay in there to give them time to hit the throttle after pressing the button. But we could hit lockup for them and save that step of hitting the throttle and waiting for the factory PCM to figure out bla bla bla. In this one instance.

Its almost like this is for casual driving. If I am crusing on the freeway, and have to hit the brakes hard, this things not gonna help a lot. You dont get max retarding power and you cant press the OD button to get it. Not to mention while I am panic'd about potentially RAMming the schmuck in front of me, I gotta start more panic when the shuttering starts.

I am kinda thinking along the lines of casual driving should save the equipment and not tax my poor little brain, and when the driver needs panic stop they just nail the brakes and nail the button. It works, max retarding power, and proper kickout speed.

So now you can all let me have it, and teach me the errors of my ways.

 

[tschwab]

Originally posted by John:
You got that right Tracy!

DITTO

And my Truck really rocks!



------------------
'98. 4 Bright White Quad Cab SLT, 2WD, 12 Valves & the BIG "P" Pump! 3. 54, AT, Trailer Tow PKG, Camper PKG, Cab Lights, DTT VB & TC, Pump Mod's, TST #8, Three pod A pillar gauge mount, EGT pre-turbo, 4" Exhaust Turndown, K&N Air Filter, 5th W. Hitch, Pace Edwards Roll-Top, Tint, 265 Michelins and turbo silencer ring AWOL!

24,776 miles - 4/11/01

 

[LandShark]

When Bill K. from DTT was in Dallas earlier this year he was 'field testing' a black box that would unlock the converter at a preselected level of throttle. The torque converter would automatically unlock upon hard acceleration, thus keeping the clutch from slipping.

------------------
1995 2500 SLT Club 4x4, auto, 3. 54, 3600 pound Elkhorn slide in camper, AirLift air springs, Ricka dual wheel adapters (used only with the camper on), K&N, DC tow hooks, Rancho RS9000, Hellwig rear sway bar.
111,000 miles and counting.

 

[rich m]

Originally posted by SlyBones:
Crusing along on freeway, and I lift the throttle. AutoLoc engages Brake and holds lockup. I get to about 40MPH and now traffic is picking up again. I add throttle. At this point does the autoloc release its hold on lockup and allow the transmission to downshift, accelerate, etc. the way the stock would have?

Nope, stays in 4th, until you "button out" the O/D.


So my question is why doesnt an autoloc have 2 kickout speeds. One for OD and one for 3rd. If the the transmission will not lockup in third unless the OD is turned off, then it seems like you only need to know the position of this switch. Pushed in 25, out 35. Both of course, would be adjustable.

Hey, Piers, this might be a cool idea!


Next is how does the autoloc know when the throttle is lifted and to engage the brake and hold lockup? Is it tapped into the TPS like someone mentioned above?

Nope, got a little microswitch that attaches right to the go-pedal. Much more straight-forward than trusting the other, more complex attachments that the Dodge people have come up with, and which may not always be uniformly adjusted.

I understand the current autoloc does not engage lockup it only holds an existing one. But... it seems to me we somehow know throttle position, whether or not the transmission is already in lockup, and the OD switch position, etc. Seems like we have the information we need to detemine if the driver is pressing the OD button to gain additional retarding power. Maybe a delay in there to give them time to hit the throttle after pressing the button. But we could hit lockup for them and save that step of hitting the throttle and waiting for the factory PCM to figure out bla bla bla. In this one instance.

Its almost like this is for casual driving. If I am crusing on the freeway, and have to hit the brakes hard, this things not gonna help a lot. You dont get max retarding power and you cant press the OD button to get it. Not to mention while I am panic'd about potentially RAMming the schmuck in front of me, I gotta start more panic when the shuttering starts.

The low-rpm "shudder" can be avoided by switching off the brake, or the A-lock, or both. I installed a single push-button on-off clicker right beside the O/D button for just that purpose, along with a little red LED indicator in a more visible location, so I can see instantly whether I'm "jaking off" or not.

I am kinda thinking along the lines of casual driving should save the equipment and not tax my poor little brain, and when the driver needs panic stop they just nail the brakes and nail the button. It works, max retarding power, and proper kickout speed.
--the circuitry reacts a lot more slowly than your foot. even with the proposed modifications, and even assuming very rapid processing by the BD goodies, the truck's ECM may still delay all the desired effects in the "OMG!!Why'd he do that!?!" scenario.

So now you can all let me have it, and teach me the errors of my ways.

Now, they can correct both of us!. . happy clattering! rm