New BMS Injectors are in

[cerberusiam]

Got the new BMS 50 HP injectors installed over the weekend. Noticeable power difference even on stock SW. How much was the old injectors just out of spec is unknown. The most noticeable thing is the how much quieter and smoother the engine is now. Gone is the timing\injector rattle this truck has had all its life which has gotten progressively worse. Gone is the rough idle. Gone is the hydraulic hammering on one or 2 injectors that was really noticeable. I have a trip to Virginia this weekend and another to Seattle next month to see how the mpg does with just an empty truck. Mileage wasn't bad with the old injectors nor starting but that rattling was becoming increasingly disconcerting. I only have a couple heat cylces on it so will see how they settle in.



Now the fun begins to build a UDC tune for 143 degree spray pattern in the deep bowl.



The more fuel that is added the better it runs. SW5 underscores how weak the TC and direct clutch pack is getting. Even with a tight setting on the front band it is on the verge of a cut away into drive. The TC is just over powered, time for a 15 blade left cut and some of DG's massaging.

 

[AH64ID]

I am curious how they work out. I am still on the fence with 143° nozzles in a 04. 5-07 piston.

I do find it very interesting that it quieted down timing rattle. Rattle is generally from too much combustion BTDC, so do the 143° nozzles create a pattern that has more ignition delay?

I thought the BMS nozzles were 100hp nozzles? IIRC they are the QSB480 injectors.

 

[cerberusiam]

I would guess the larger nozzles and wider pattern contribute to ignition delay on them. Backing the timing off from the high advance with the OE injectors seems to quiet things down. The initial start and warmup was done on SW3 and timing 4. I reloaded, backed that down to timing 2 and the hard rattle at ignition went away so it seems controllable and predictable

Whatever these are they are not 100 HP nozzles. On stock and lower SW's the pressure is holding and smoke is minimal at low boost. It does feel stronger but new injectors vs old and SOP are not a good gauge. The acid test will be mpg at cruise. I have a solid read on what the OE's did, now need to do some miles to see what happens.

Same here on the 143 degree nozzles, one can read all day and ultimately installing them is the only accurate gauge. I got such a good deal on brand new bodies with these tips it was worth a little R&D. My son picked up a running 04 CR fro $400 that looks to need injectors at some point so it won't be a waste. He doesn't know it yet but now I have a backup motor in case I hurt this one. :-laf

 

[AH64ID]

There you go!!

Keep us informed.

 

[p-Bar]

Sounds interesting thanks for posting

 

[cerberusiam]

After 1400 miles the results are promising. Seeing a solid 1-1. 5 mpg gain in most situations, up to 2 mpg in others. The best results included about 40% 60-65 mpg speeds, that came in at 18. 7 mpg. The general mileage at 72-73 mpg was 18. 3-18. 4. The lone uphill run included in and out of thunderstorms the whole way and pulled 17. 7 mpg.

Overall, not bad for running in hot, humid, heavy air. These numbers are better than it ever did with stock injectors at less than 100k and comparable tire size\tread. Will be interestng to see what the numbers look like with some altitude and drier air in the middle part of the country. This soup for air has some drawbacks.

The bulk of the miles were run on SW3 Timing2, the rest defaulted. I did try SW2 and lost 2 mpg, something about how that tune is built does not seem compatible.

Now it has me wondering how much good a cam would do???

 

[p-Bar]

Thanks for the update . what great results

 

[cerberusiam]

Couple of others things noted after having time to asess the way it runs. Free revving the engine to 3000 rpms originally produced no hangs or jerky drops in the rpms. Over the last 50k or so it has started to get a little worse. I could see a definitie slow down of the rpm drop very 300-400 rpm or so. It wasn't jerky but it was definitely not smooth anymore. The new injectors are dead smotth from 3000 rpms to idle. Takes about a 1001 count and the rpms start dropping evenly and smoothly to idle.

Just got the oil test back and it looked good. Fuel dilution less than 1% and soot loading was low even after 8k mikes. Recommendation was no change needed. Injectors weren't hanging and over fueling, thye were working decently as mileage had not dropped from new, but, they were not shutting down smoothly from high rpms and were idling rough and were extremely noisy.

Takeaway is with stock filtration somewhere around 200k give or take 20k it is probably a good idea to start thinking about replacing them. While they may still work well, deliver decent efficiency, and not promote oil problems, the balance and wear on the nozzles\bodies can effect things. Considering firing 2x per event the fact they will last at least as long or longer than a 12V or 24V injector before needing attention should indicate that Bosch was not far wrong in their design.

How much did the additives contribute? Hard to quantify without a control. Was the mileage the result of additives and an attempt to buy the best fuel possible or just luck? Again, no way to quantify it. Personal decision to treat or not to treat, filter or not filter.

 

[AH64ID]

How many hours did you get out of the OEM injectors?

 

[MChrist]

How many hours did you get out of the OEM injectors?

How do you find the hour meter on these trucks?

Also, my truck has hung onto rpms since I bought it with 26,000 miles. Rev it to 3,000 and it hangs there for about two full seconds, then slowly comes down. My '98. 5 revs up and down like a gasser. I assumed it was a common rail thing. Could it mean my injectors are sketchy?

 

[cerberusiam]

How many hours did you get out of the OEM injectors?

Should be around 5700-5800 hours. Not sure because the used cluster needs programmed with the data from the ECU and that takes a DRBIII or equivalent to do. The last time I checked avg mph was 37 so I can back calcuclate what hours should be.

Mchrist, with the key on and the odometer displaying total miles press and hold the trip meter button for 5-7 seconds and the odo window should show total hours.

Hang at the top when you first let off is not so important, that could be 1-2 seconds depending on how you do it. I usually held the rpm at 3000 for a good 5-10 seconds to let everything stabilize then lifted off the throttle, if you rev to 30000 then lift without waiting to stabilize the fuel delivery it will take longer to start down. Watch the rpms as the rpms drop looking for a notchy drop. Mine was starting to drop 300-400 and hang for a bit then drop some more. The de-rev was not smooth like it is now and was when the truck was new. The nothcy drop is indicative of wear and\or problems. I have seen some that would hold for up to 2 seconds at several stop points on the de-rev, that is not good.

 

[JJPage]

Hang at the top when you first let off is not so important, that could be 1-2 seconds depending on how you do it. I usually held the rpm at 3000 for a good 5-10 seconds to let everything stabilize then lifted off the throttle, if you rev to 30000 then lift without waiting to stabilize the fuel delivery it will take longer to start down. Watch the rpms as the rpms drop looking for a notchy drop. Mine was starting to drop 300-400 and hang for a bit then drop some more. The de-rev was not smooth like it is now and was when the truck was new. The nothcy drop is indicative of wear and\or problems. I have seen some that would hold for up to 2 seconds at several stop points on the de-rev, that is not good.

I have noticed that if I raise rail pressure beyond stock, throttle will also hang as you described.

Cerb, how did you decide on BMS? I have been contemplating BBI, just hard to justify the $ when mine are fine. Thanks for the report.

 

[cerberusiam]

Yep, rail pressure ramps over a certain point will cause a hang also.

The BBI injectors were in play also, but as you said the $$ were a concern at this juncture. I have dropped over $7k in the last 2 months in updates and mods, wife was getting owly about the funds expenditure. I really wasn't even looking for a larger tip as the stock ones are more than adequate for what I need. I got the BMS injectors for less than new OE with a larger tip. I figured with new bodies, if the 50 HP 144 degree nozzles did not workout, adding a new set of stock nozzles would be a lot cheaper to deal with.

The BBI injectors are still a bit of a mystery around efficiency as opposed to outrigth power. They are probably OK but it seems once you try to push past 40-50 HP on the nozzles the mpg start to suffer. The BBI seem to be more performance oriented than not so it cause some pause on suitability.

That and I have an 04 project engine that likely need injectors at some point so I could serve 2 purposes with the BMS ones.

 

[JJPage]

The BBI injectors are still a bit of a mystery around efficiency as opposed to outrigth power. They are probably OK but it seems once you try to push past 40-50 HP on the nozzles the mpg start to suffer. The BBI seem to be more performance oriented than not so it cause some pause on suitability.

This is the impression I am getting about the BBI's too, and at a difference in price of about $1300... I went to Bosch Motorsports site, looks like they are "out of stock" on all CR injectors.

I know you and John touched on the fact earlier in this thread, using a 143* spray angle in your 05, and running a Smarty with it's advanced timing in play and possibly spraying fuel onto the piston crown. Have I missed something, has this been proven to not be a concern by BMS? Obviously, your truck seems to be responding well to the new injectors.

 

[cerberusiam]

Check with Diesel Auto Power out of Kaysville Utah, I think they still had plentry but they have been selling a bunch of them. Call them and ask for Jacob, tell him I sent you.



That is the nice thing about the Smarty, you can control that timing curve to some degree. with the normal retarded timing of the 04. 5+ engine the wider spray angle becomes a bit less of a problem because the large nozzles put more fuel in the bowl area rather than a longer stream at the same pressures. The event will be somewhat shorter and broader than a stock nozzle so the bulk of the fuel still is firing over the bowl rather than out of it. The major difference in the bowls is the lip on the bowl that diverts the stream back into the bowl area. The 04. 5+ engines lack that lip which happens to be the weakest area of the piston due to the gallery cooling. Little less material there and it will tend to blow thru if you get too much heat in the piston. Since I rarely take the engine over 2500 rpms under a heavy load it stands to reason that the angle and timing are not going to get critical in the typical rpm range.



The retarded timing and broader spray pattern tends to negate the issue on the edge of the bowl, I think unless you really start cranking a lot of timing into it and spinning that engine up over 3500 rpms it probably is not going to be a big issue. So far on Timing 2 it is responding well. I don't thnk these injectors are going to like a lot of timing as when I went to SW2 I lost a lot of mpg. IIRC, SW2 was supposedly mostly timing and assuming it was advancing it more to get the power. I need to do a little more playing with timing on SW3 and see if advancing it more starts to drop mpg, that would be a good indication that the spray pattern is getting outside the optimal area.



A lot of people poo-poo the idea the wide spray angle being a bad thing, I see a lot of discussion and diseent on it. As usual, it is a lot of theory because there is no quantifiable data from the proponents to judge the efficacy.



Now, if you want to subscribe to the HB Paradigm the engine is going to expire soon because I did not do it exactly like Cummins did. Never mind the fuel system is built by Bosch, if it is not Cummins approved and built it is not acceptable.

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

Alan states: "The BBI injectors are still a bit of a mystery around efficiency as opposed to outright power. They are probably OK but it seems once you try to push past 40-50 HP on the nozzles the mpg start to suffer. The BBI seem to be more performance oriented than not so it cause some pause on suitability. "

Yes the BBi stage 1 may be considered to be a "performance oriented" Injector by some as it can make over 800 horse with the right supporting mods. However it is efficient and offers good MPG one can call it a mileage injector if they wanted. My experience with the stage ones in my own truck has shown these to be an all around good injector for MPG with a 2 mpg increase on my last long distance run and an increase for daily driving. I dyno over 700 horse and daily drive in the 5 - 600 range.

One Gentleman with an 06 who formerly had a well known brand of aftermarket stix is reporting 2-3 mpg gain with his BBi 2's over the ones he replaced.

A gentleman with a stock truck, with the exception of a South Bend clutch and exhaust, running a Smarty on SW3 and BBi stage 1's on his 07 dynoed 522 hp and he mentions a gain of 2 mpg over his stock injectors. Depending on if ones driving habit changes with the new found power there is no reason why one would not expect an increase over stock with the BBi stage 1's.

Just because one might think of these as a performance Injector because they have the capability to offer one 800 horse when the tuning is turned up one should not rule these out if one wanted to be in the 300 - 400 horse range. One gentleman needed to purchase new Injectors but he wished to be in the 300 horse range. With a UDC tune allowing him to run in that 300 hp range his truck runs good for how he uses it and he has plenty of injector for when he is ready to make other changes, IF he decides to at a later date.

There are several examples where Stage 1 BBi's have an increase in fuel mileage and even stage 2's.

There is NO reason that one would need to run a smaller injector than these stage ones. 40 or 50 horse increase capable injectors would not necessarily be more fuel efficient than efficient 100 horse injectors. The right 100 horse injector and the right tune driven in the right manner is going to show good mpg. As mentioned before one can run these just as well on a 300 horse truck or an 800 horse truck. And a 500 - 700 horse daily driver is still proven to get good fuel mileage.

Here is an interesting collection of dyno graphs with stage 1 and various JR and S-06 tunes.
http://smartyresource.com/bbi-injectors-04-07-stg1.aspx

JJ mentions price. These are a Premium Injector like no other. Some may not know but due to the fact that we have increased our sales volume, we have been able to adjust the price down to $3460 due to buying components in a greater quantity. Brand new hand built injectors and NO core charge.

 

[Prairie Dog]

Brian, I live in the land of emission testing so bigger sticks are a concern.
Would your stage 1 or 2 parts still pass the test with my SmJr set to stock?


Thanks,
Scott

 

[BrianAtSmarty]

Indeed Scott!

Ours did. Yours certainly should. Depending on tuning, Adjust Smarty or the option to use PoD are choices.

Source recently installed BBi Stg. 1. 5's & a Colt Stg. 3 camshaft, JR on SW 1 in an otherwise stock equipped 2012. Not only did it pass the Wa. state snap test, the post modification test results were cleaner than stock !

 

[AH64ID]

I have done a bunch of research on timing and spraying outside the bowl, people have done the math and the amount of timing to spray outside the bowl is more timing than you can effectively run, but a lot. I don't recall the exact number, but its it the upper 30's from what I recall.

The pilot may fire in that range, but it's not enough fuel or moving fast enough to reach the edge of the bowl before the piston reaches it.

You are more likely to spray outside the bowl after TDC than before, especially with the stock limiter of 45° ATDC. There should be a fire burning it then, but...

 

[Walcott]

brain,I have a 03 and currently have a lot of injector knock. I have 330,000 on truck and currently running Industrial 2 60 hp sticks with about 50-60k them. I was considering the BBI injectors but the 1300. 00 cost diff. is in play here. I think I hurt my injectors with the smarty,not sure?Can you explain how and why they would be so much better?
thanks,Alan