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New Carli lower issue - check this out!

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DPalmquist - When I removed the Moogs, they had some stiff spots in them, but I don't think they were trashed by any means. I think they had about 10 thousand or so, give or take a bit.



Here are the pics of the cup/ball of the lower that had about 4500 miles on it. Once again, I think this was caused by contamination from assembly at the machine shop that Sage isn't going to use any longer.
 
Let us know how it turns out. As someone sitting on the fence about wether or not I want to put $800 plus into ball joints, this is an informative thread to me.



And for my two cents, I didn't see this thread as bashing; especially considering you've already had to redo the ball joints once before. (And judging by the pictures, you most likely will be doing them again. ) I think you have earned the right to express your issues/problems as they occur.



At that price the truck better fall apart around those ball joints!
 
Carli... .



Why is no one making heavy duty ball joints for the 2001-2002 models? I am really getting sick of the down time with mine.
 
At that price the truck better fall apart around those ball joints!



I have seen numerous 3rd gen rigs on their 4th set of OEM and Moogs all replaced at under 100k yet. which makes the price for these come into reality. ;) Especially if you have a shop install them. :eek:
 
When we get this whole ball joint product streamlined, there will be more coming out... right now we need to dial in the production, then build from there.

2nd gens are high on the radar guys...
 
Carli ball joints will be going on my truck when replacement is necessary. I am a suspension customer and must say that their products are top notch. Customer service is excellent as they answered many questions for me when I was figuring out tire and rim size and suspension components to get the look and performance out of my truck I wanted and it handle and ride better than stock. It does both very well ! I must say that in todays bussiness world it is refreshing to see someone with passion for their work and stand behind their products to make things right when something goes wrong. I am not suprised at how they took care of this, they are good people.
 
Don't mean to be a total noob here but these ball joints are something different than the BJ & TRE used on the steering linkage, correct?
 
Good morning guys. I've been hanging with Sage to get spun up on where things are with the ball joints and relay that to our customers and TDR readers. It's been BUSY over at the shop and Sage has been living and breathing this issue since it began.

I'll try to communicate this with a little bit of a timeline, it's a lot of stuff and even as of this morning, more is on it's way. I'll keep this updated as things develop. Ya'll deserve to be kept in the loop and I'll try to manage that as the pieces come together.

New Developments
Sage sought some heavy duty consulting and we are introducing Adel Sharif, Cal State University's Material and Mechanical Engineering professor. Adel is analyzing and making recommendations to the processing, materials and the design / production. There is some more information on the Carli Blog about Adel's skillset.

This brings good news, we have some answers and we get to understand what happened from the molecular (literally) level to the finished product. So, I figure I should start with some answers and then I'll throw out a little too much honesty and just let you all know WTF happened.

Broken Ball Joint Pins, a very expensive lesson for Sage and the beginning of the issue...
The ball joint pins broke due to the amount of heat treat we were using on machined threads when treating the whole pin. Initially we masked each piece and only heat treated the mating surfaces. The machinist made a recommendation to make a change. Freeze frame - This is exactly where Sage admits he made his mistake and in hindsight, should have found Abel to bring his super instruments to the party and make sure everything is dialed in - but that didn't happen. So Sage takes the machinist advice, and this wasn't a far cry. The machinist's portfolio is all super high liability critical components for jets and roller coasters. The recommendation was to go up in material and heat treat the entire pin. Freeze Frame again - This was not a bad recommendation, it could have been done perfectly and the end result nailed, IF there was a little more research done on the heat treat process. Ok, so now we have a good recommendation, followed up by a ball drop. The truth of the matter is the machinist didn't create a heat treat profile for the lower ball joint, he pulled a heat treat profile from another project using the same stock and machine processes. It just turns out that it wasn't a good combination.

What we're learning
Ok, this gets crazy because there is no reason why I should know about the four stages of heat treat, Carborizing, Autenization, Sub Zero and Temper, but I do now. Carborizing is where carbon atoms are added to the material, which will increase the overall hardness. Autenization is where the carbon atoms bond with molecules and start to arrange. Sub Zero is done through either a water quench, oil quench or liquid nitrogen quench, basically just determining how fast you bring the piece down. The speed at which the piece cools is critical to hardness depth and the alignment of the molecular structure as well as the quality of the carbonizing and ostinization, this brings it all together. Temper is a final process that I actually forgot what that part is all about, but the bottom line here is that each step's process depends on the properties of the last one. It could all be done, but it takes knowing the material properties, how much and how long you carborize and based on that, what tempature and duration you Autenize and based on that, what your sub zero type and duration should be and so on. So we're getting it and we learned what went wrong, where our mistake was and now we're moving forward.

As of this morning
We still have piles of finished ball joint pieces that are done and ready for heat treat. The entire PO was frozen and not a single ball joint was finished or shipped since this happened. So we have Adel turning the knobs on a microscope who is designing a custom heat treat profile and that was delivered to the the heat treater this morning.

So the next steps are;

1- Ball joint heat treat run complete
2- Sage drives them to Adel
3- Adel does some microstructural analysis
4- Adel approves or rejects with changes to the heat treat profile
5- If rejected, go to #1, if approved it goes on a truck

That's the whole reason, lesson learned and status of where we're at. If anyone has any questions, feel free to PM, call or email. When there's some more info, I'll jump in here and keep you posted.

Thanks for hanging in there guys.
 
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So in short the ones on rigs now are still possibly prone to future issues?



Is there going to be a recall on those already sold and installed? Or will it just fall into the lifetime warranty and be dealt with if a problem arises?
 
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Excellent question! I should have stated something on this, thanks for bringing it up.

Nothing much has changed here, 100% product guarantee and a 100% satisfaction guarantee - that's what the offer is. If there is any issue with a ball joint, we'll work with our customer on making it right by them, whatever that means.

In regards to a recall - Sage is still testing. He and Shaun built a test jig where they can put the ball joint in a 20 ton press and then cycle it, so they can load up these BJ's and test them. Sage is also running the same set in his truck, and in a couple of days, he's meeting me down here in Mexico for an off road bashing. If they don't hold up to Sage's expectations, he'll swap them out.

In either case, Sage is going through a lot of measures to make sure that anyone running his product is happy and that the product is right.
 
I wish some other Companies would follow your example of supreme customer service and straight forward approach to issues rather than playing the denial and blame game like some others like to do.



KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I wish some other Companies would follow your example of supreme customer service and straight forward approach to issues rather than playing the denial and blame game like some others like to do.



KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Same here!!!
 
Right on, thanks guys.

Update
I just talked to Sage about Billvo's first question and he explained to me that the failed pins cracked during heat treat processing and didn't develop over time on the vehicle. Those pieces broke before they were installed, so the indication was immediate.

So if there's a ball joint problem, don't hesitate to give us a call... but if there's no symptoms, we're saying that they are good to go. And Sage wanted me to reiterate that he's running these on his truck, the exact same batch, with confidence and made it a point to relay that to his customers. He's going to inspect his after a rough weekend putting dog year miles on them off road in Baja (and I told him that I owe TDR a photo or two of what he's throwing at these BJ's, so this should be fun!).

So before I am done, you should all see how these hold up to a real bashing.
 
I can tell you after having mine in now for about 5K and trust me I don't baby mine, I have had no issues at all. And all also add that I love my 2. 5 pin Top suspension. It's truly amazing and until you actually get in a dodge with this system on it, you cannot know how awesome it is. And buy the way Sage i love the Bump Stops and the new sway bar and steering box brace. The truck handles like a ferrari on and off road. Only problem is the Wife is now trying to drive it more because of the plush ride, so now we toss a coin to see who gets to drive it.
 
Carlisuspension:



I sent my replaced drivers lower back out to you a couple of days ago. Hopefully you'll get it by next week.



Please keep us posted on what may have caused the scoring in the ball/cup area of this joint. Could it have been contamination? Could it have something to do with heat treating?



Maybe it doesn't matter to most, but I'd like to know what your professional findings are on it when you get a chance to examine it, as I know you're very busy at this time.



Thanks so much for your awesome service and support!



Wayne
 
Thanks Bill. I have been kicking around a DynaTrac conversion too with this. We'll see what happens with next weeks lottery... ... ... .
 
Carli Lower Ball Joint Testing

Here's what we through at it... the entire weekend with hundreds of fun miles. Sage is running the same batch and they are holding up like they were designed to.


Erendira

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Headed north on Sunday

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