New CAT on-highway truck!

[NIsaacs]

HB, AFAIK, these will be vocational trucks only, Cat is not going into the truck tractor business.

They will be offered in truck or tractor configuration in 116" and 122" BBC. Vocational usually means more of a local type trucking business with special bodies and day cabs, no sleepers. If you don't want or need a sleeper, I see no reason why you can't drive it coast to coast. My guess is sleepers are next.



They say the truck will be built in Garland, Texas and the transmission in East Peoria. Engine choice will be Cat CT11, CT13 and CT15 with HP ratings from 330-550.



Nick

 

[mwilson]

From the looks of the door handle that is a Navistar cab.



Mike.

 

[Jim W]

I have to disagree with that, they (CAT) dropped out.



If that were the case and the Daimler Gang only wanted to sell the Detroit Diesel Engine then why is Daimler offering Cummins as a powerplant choice once again.

They will not drop something that sells well without a good reason. And if a fleet demands a certain powertrain then the OEM's will bust a nut to get it into a chassis.

Have even seen Freightliners factory equipped with Navistar/Spicer rears that a fleet customer demanded.

No joke.



I just went to the GM to confirm this and CAT did indeed step out. ACERT engines had a high failure rate and then when the '08's came out it got even worse.



I can assure you that PACCAR (Peterbilt and Kenworth) did not want CAT to get out of the game, they bought up every '08 CAT engine they could find and offered CAT power into '09 using the excess engines to get by.



We were distraught that CAT dropped out, had a huge market share up here.

Even with the ACERT issues they still have a loyal customer base.



CAT ACERT's do not hold up as well as the pre-emissions CAT engines in our vocational world. They can't even design an exhaust sleeve that wont fall apart and go thru both turbos. That makes for huge warranty claims.

They got tired of being on the hook for it and had way too much trouble meeting emissions.

I don't know how they plan to keep it up once the credits are used up.



JMHO.



Mike.

Mike, I was on the design teams for Large Wheel Loaders for my last 10 years at Caterpillar. I was involved from Tier I emission changes all the way thru Tier IV emissions changes. I retired from Cat in Jan 2009. In either the late 3RD quarter or early four quarter of 2008, Caterpillar made the decision to get out of the on highway engine market. The reason given too the design teams, as we struggled with Tier IV emission changes. Where the closing of the markets to Caterpillar engines by PaCCar and Daimler so we did not have the volume to continue to produce on highway engines by CAT. Another reason was the lack of a national distribution system of UREA when the decision was made in late 2008.



As far as ACERT's engines, Caterpillar has used them since they were introduced during Tier II emissions and including in Tier IV emission vehicles. Caterpillar has used them in almost all of their products from the Back Hoe Loaders all the way through the D11 tractors. We used them on all 15 different models of Large Wheel Loaders. Caterpillar has had great success with them, did they have some reliability issues. Yes, they did. But and the customer does not like to hear this, the failure rate was less then the predicted B10 life of the engine.

Anytime when one has to redesigned the machine or engine. Some components will be introduce that will fail short of their B10 life prediction. This is the nature of new products and why redesigns occur and rework programs are established. Cat has always stood behind their products and offered either warranty or policy to our customers to resolve these issue in a timely manner. .

Jim W.

 

[TFucili]

Way back when this was first talked about, I thought I recall an article saying it would be a Cat labeled Intrashnational, and that the Navijunk Maxxforce(?) engines were a mix of existing engines and larger displacement engines through their purchase of another(German?)manufacturer. It seems they are just leveraging the Cat name, like a pair of work boots.

 

[Jim W]

I find it very difficult to believe that CAT would make the huge investment in design, testing, land, buildings, equipment, labor, etc. to suddenly develop a new truck line to sell into a competitive market. Sorry, I'm an old skeptic but I'm not convinced.

Harvey,

Yes, Caterpillar has done this many times and will continue to do this.

I know of Four programs that went into production, built machines, sold them and then Caterpillar choose to get out of that product line. I was involved in one of them. Caterpillar had three machine programs that almost made it to production that I know of. Cat built the machines and or vehicles and were ready to ship when marketing pulled the plug on them. Caterpillar has bought land and started to build the factories. Only to tear them down and melt the iron at the Caterpillar foundry when the business decision change the business model. This was in the forty years that I was at Caterpillar that this all occur.

Jim W.

 

[Jim W]

Way back when this was first talked about, I thought I recall an article saying it would be a Cat labeled Intrashnational, and that the Navijunk Maxxforce(?) engines were a mix of existing engines and larger displacement engines through their purchase of another(German?)manufacturer. It seems they are just leveraging the Cat name, like a pair of work boots.

No, what you may be thinking about are the two companies that Caterpillar bought. One of the German companies is Krupp MAK in 1997, and the other is MWM Gmbh in 2010. Caterpillar has bought other engine manufactures such as Perkins and Electro-Motive Diesel Inc. These are to large for earthmoving equipment except Perkins. Perkin engine are used in the smaller Caterpillar machine product line and the other engine manufactures are used in ships, trains and generator plants that are larger than the 3516 Cylinder engines made in Lafayette IN. by Caterpillar.

Jim W.

 

[mwilson]

No, what you may be thinking about are the two companies that Caterpillar bought. One of the German companies is Krupp MAK in 1997, and the other is MWM Gmbh in 2010. Caterpillar has bought other engine manufactures such as Perkins and Electro-Motive Diesel Inc. These are to large for earthmoving equipment except Perkins. Perkin engine are used in the smaller Caterpillar machine product line and the other engine manufactures are used in ships, trains and generator plants that are larger than the 3516 Cylinder engines made in Lafayette IN. by Caterpillar.

Jim W.

We fondly refer to the Perkins/Cat engines as "Perkapillars"... ... .



Mike.

 

[mwilson]

Mike, I was on the design teams for Large Wheel Loaders for my last 10 years at Caterpillar. I was involved from Tier I emission changes all the way thru Tier IV emissions changes. I retired from Cat in Jan 2009. In either the late 3RD quarter or early four quarter of 2008, Caterpillar made the decision to get out of the on highway engine market. The reason given too the design teams, as we struggled with Tier IV emission changes. Where the closing of the markets to Caterpillar engines by PaCCar and Daimler so we did not have the volume to continue to produce on highway engines by CAT. Another reason was the lack of a national distribution system of UREA when the decision was made in late 2008.



As far as ACERT's engines, Caterpillar has used them since they were introduced during Tier II emissions and including in Tier IV emission vehicles. Caterpillar has used them in almost all of their products from the Back Hoe Loaders all the way through the D11 tractors. We used them on all 15 different models of Large Wheel Loaders. Caterpillar has had great success with them, did they have some reliability issues. Yes, they did. But and the customer does not like to hear this, the failure rate was less then the predicted B10 life of the engine.

Anytime when one has to redesigned the machine or engine. Some components will be introduce that will fail short of their B10 life prediction. This is the nature of new products and why redesigns occur and rework programs are established. Cat has always stood behind their products and offered either warranty or policy to our customers to resolve these issue in a timely manner. .

Jim W.

Jim,

I understand your background and level of experience but it appears that it you were much more involved with equipment rather than truck installations.

That is a whole different set of circumstances for anyones engines including CAT.



I feel that a bad decison was made in the early stages of emissions and related systems when CAT decided to use the ACERT approach rather than follow the flock using EGR systems and then the UREA approach currently in use. The excuse given to you by the higher ups concerning availability of aftertreatment fluids didn't slow any other engine manufacturer down, you can find the stuff easily.



A french truck driver on the Golden Road (American Loggers) can take your

B10 life and make a complete and total joke of it in about two weeks hauling 200,000lbs. + per trip in a truck that was designed to carry 100,000lbs.

If there are ANY weak points in a design they WILL find them.



I did not mean to indicate that CAT backed out of any warranty or refused to pay out, I simply wanted to point out that I felt it was costing them some serious money to do so and was no longer feasable.



I will give CAT a huge thumbs up on the warranty policies that are in place, they are more than fair.

They will pay operational damage (for example a cylinder head drops a valve, trashes the cylinder kit, cracks the sleeve and fills everything full of coolant, etc. ) they will step up for all the damage where some of the other engine companies will simply take care of the cylinder head itself, the rest is the owners issue.



I know of one instance here in the State Of Maine where an insider and myself added up the cost to CAT for warranty repairs to the engine only for just one C-15 ACERT powered truck while under coverage...



Get ready for it ... ... ... ... ..... $80,000. 00 +!!!!!!



Included one complete engine replacement and several teardowns,

Ain't no company including CAT that will put up with that kind of financial drain longterm.



I have said this in other discussions here and will say it again...

The worst thing that anyone can do to a Diesel Engine is put it in a truck, there is no harsher fate for one.



Mike.

 

[mwilson]

As luck would have it a District Service Manager from a major OEM supplier (who I won't name) dropped in this morning to see me.



In our conversation I asked him about the CAT Truck deal and he rolled his eyes.

He said that he has been instructed to add them to his area of responsibility and must now call on and tend them as he does any other truck dealer. He voiced a lot of the same concerns that I did on page 1 of this post, including their ability to deal with warranty issues that are Non-Cat in nature.



He also feels as I do that this places all CAT Distributors in direct competition with the truck dealers and he stated that many Navistar Dealers are extremely upset already.



As I said, this is gonna' get interesting.



Mike.

 

[TFucili]

No, what you may be thinking about are the two companies that Caterpillar bought. One of the German companies is Krupp MAK in 1997, and the other is MWM Gmbh in 2010. Caterpillar has bought other engine manufactures such as Perkins and Electro-Motive Diesel Inc. These are to large for earthmoving equipment except Perkins. Perkin engine are used in the smaller Caterpillar machine product line and the other engine manufactures are used in ships, trains and generator plants that are larger than the 3516 Cylinder engines made in Lafayette IN. by Caterpillar.

Jim W.

I can't find the original article, but I did find this little blurb about "cooperation" with MAN:



MaxxForce 11 and MaxxForce 13 are International’s new big-bore diesel engines, developed in cooperation with MAN, for the Class 8 truck market. These engines feature a compacted-graphite iron (CGI) cylinder block, and offer good fuel economy, excellent power characteristics and quiet, low noise, vibration and harshness. The MaxxForce 11 will be offered in TranStar, while the MaxxForce 13 will be available in the ProStar. More technical specifications will be announced in 2007, leading up to the production launch in the fall of 2007.

 

[TFucili]

On the other hand Here's a link to an article regarding the Cat connection:

Navistar unveils MaxxForce 15 and integrated mixer line | Ready-Sourcing.com - World Industrial Sourcing News covering national and international Trading affairs.

 

[HBarlow]

Cat debuts CT660 vocational truck - eTrucker

Navistar unveils MaxxForce 15 - eTrucker

The new Caterpillar seems to be a rebadged Navistar with a modified grille and powered by a CAT C-15 block with Navistar HPCR and emissions in order to meet the current emissions standards Caterpillar was unable or unwilling to meet several years ago.

 

[Bill Stockard]

The CAT/Navistar vocational trucks is not new news...



From a Navistar News Release dated September 10, 2009:



"Separately, Navistar and Caterpillar continue to work on design and development of a new proprietary, purpose-built, heavy-duty CAT vocational truck for the North American market. The trucks, manufactured in Navistar’s Garland, Texas facility, will be sold and serviced through the CAT North American Dealer network. Caterpillar vocational trucks are scheduled for full production in mid 2011. "



I wasn't surprised at the introduction of the CAT vocational trucks a the ConAg show in Las Vegas. I remembered reading about this previously and looked it up.



Bill

 

[mwilson]

I had been hearing about it for a while but had not seen the blurb that Bill found.

Had been secretly hoping that they (CAT) would drop the whole stupid idea and just supply engines to Navistar but that looks to be out the window.



CAT whacked TEPS dealers (OEM's like us) with a hefty 6% to 8% price increase in January of this year so the next logical progression is for CAT to try to herd more engine business back into their own shops with more attractive pricing than the TEPS dealers can offer.



In the past it was far cheaper for the customer to purchase his CAT engine parts from a TEPS dealer rather than the CAT distributor, that was the design of the program.



Now I think that is going to change.



Not good for Joe Consumer.



Mike.

 

[Bill Stockard]

I had been hearing about it for a while but had not seen the blurb that Bill found.

Had been secretly hoping that they (CAT) would drop the whole stupid idea and just supply engines to Navistar but that looks to be out the window.

Mike.

Mike,



I guess since John Deere is always trying to "me too" CAT in the construction equipment line, they can team up with Freightliner and offer a John Deere vocational truck.



Yeah, like there's a shortage of vocational trucks...



I'll bet there will be CAT vocational trucks sold to the large contractors like H B Zachary. The small contractor won't be able to afford one.



Bill

 

[mwilson]

I'm gonna' toss that Deere Powered Freightliner idea out front and let the fertile minds of my parts guys come up with a name for it. :-laf



They are pretty good at that and created the "Perkapillar" name a while back when we had our first Dometic APU in here with a pretty little yellow Perkins in it for power.



Have to have a sense of humor or this business will take you out... ... Oo.



Mike.

 

[mwilson]

Mike,



I guess since John Deere is always trying to "me too" CAT in the construction equipment line, they can team up with Freightliner and offer a John Deere vocational truck.



Yeah, like there's a shortage of vocational trucks...



I'll bet there will be CAT vocational trucks sold to the large contractors like H B Zachary. The small contractor won't be able to afford one.



Bill

I have one name already for a Deere Powered Freightliner courtesy of my peanut gallery... .



"Buck Fever".



Mike.

 

[Wingate]

No, what you may be thinking about are the two companies that Caterpillar bought. One of the German companies is Krupp MAK in 1997, and the other is MWM Gmbh in 2010. Caterpillar has bought other engine manufactures such as Perkins and Electro-Motive Diesel Inc. These are to large for earthmoving equipment except Perkins. Perkin engine are used in the smaller Caterpillar machine product line and the other engine manufactures are used in ships, trains and generator plants that are larger than the 3516 Cylinder engines made in Lafayette IN. by Caterpillar.

Jim W.

COME'ON JIM!!!... Don't you DARE mention my beloved 3500 Cats in the same breath as that backwards build german engine!!!!. . :-laf:-laf:-laf

 

[rbattelle]

I really like the looks of these new Cat vocational trucks. Of course, looks are effectively meaningless - only capability matters.



My suspicion is that Cat can succeed in this market against Terex, Osh Kosh, Mack, Pete, etc. - names who have been doing this kind of work much longer - but perhaps only on the basis of buyers having romantic feelings for anything that says "Cat". There certainly seems to be a lot of die-hard Cat fans out there. Am I wrong?



Any news on the new trucks?



-Ryan

 

[BIGNASTY]

Dont most of the Inter trash inoal motors have 2 turbos maybe cat added them also. I read an piece that Cat said the Truck market was only like 15% of the Biss. Well in these times 15% is allot Cat's not cash exempt are they