Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) new injectors and pump timing

[Heepdriver]

Just timed my injection pump and installed 230 HP ford F-700 injectors. No idea what part number I didn't write it down before I put them in. looked em up on the cummins site and they are rated for 650 tq. here's my questions. 60 degrees outside and it starts up like its 20. rough needing part throthle and lots of white smoke. until it reaches about 160 on the temp it smokes bad and stumbles. Hard to drive it will almost cut outin first. once it is warmed up it runs smoother and is more responsive. But it makes 2-4 less pounds of boost and smokes less. depending on the gear your in 1st is good to about 1750 before it stumbles, 2nd is good to 1850 or so, and so on until 5th is good to 2100 unless your putting your foot in it and over 20lbs of boost it will go to 2300 before stumble. is this My timing not set correctly of the larger injectors. bring the questions and i'll try to answer.

 

[Heepdriver]

I forgot EGT's are about 100 to 150 degrees higher and respond to the motor slower. and I can make 2 more lbs of boost at the top end of 5th than I could before. The motor is so much quiter and the boost gauge doesn't jump anymore, but boost seems to respond a little slower as well as the make a little less.

 

[Bandit1]

injectors could be worn out, they may not pop off at the right psi. may be worth taking them out and sending them to a diesel shop to have them over hauled.

 

[Lsfarm]

Timing is off

All your symptoms are those of retarded timing, go through the setting of top dead center again, and check your timing. I'm sure you will find it at around 10* or less.



Good luck. Hope this helps, Greg L

 

[Heepdriver]

Bandit1 The injectors are supposed to be brand new! And I'm gonna be ****** if they are bad cuse it took me four months to put em in. The more I think about this, I have a turbo oil pressure guage and temp ( taken in line to the turbo ) and I'm 5 - 10 degrees warmer and the oil presure shows 5 - 10 lower PSI While the engine oil presure guage on the dash shows about 5 more than normal, odd. the whole truck feels different.



Lsfarm I am concerned about my timing. we set it at about 11:00 and had never done one before. The tool I boought is not right or missing a part. the travel is only 5 mm and my injecton pump being a 1959 needs 5. 5 mm to acceive ( I think ) 12. 5 degrees timing. I made an adaptor to my inj. pump with a toyota sensor, hole drilled in the bottom, tapped for the thread of the dial indicator and gutted to allow the dial indicator to sit down in the bore. but it didn't reach low enough. So i resorted to my dial indicator and rounded . 0394" = 1 mm to . 040 but I couldn't get a straight shot at it down the bore. We set the timing at . 235 or about ( I'm guessing I don't have the chart here) 14 degrees? It may be off, Great Lakes, need a camping southern vacation on the side of Mt Mitchell ( tallest peak east of the mississippi ) near the south toe river. I'll by beer and steaks, you want to sleep on top the ridge and get a little 4wheelin in or down by the river and do some fishin.



before I did this I thought my timing was retarded due to the clatter and roughness or was that to advanced. what are the symptoms and how do I know if it is the inj. worn out or the timing off. what could I do to tell. why white smoke with no air fuel, or a cold motor and black soot when driving warm.

 

[Lsfarm]

white, black smoke

If the fuel is injected late into a cold cylinder, the fuel will only burn a little, but will vaporize into a white smoke-like fog, if the fuel is injected late into a warm cylinder, it will all ignite, but not burn completely and go out the exhaust as black smoke and will burn in the exhaust manifold and cause higher EGT's and low power.



Any way you can put the timing back to where it was to start?? if you can, then I believe you will have a much better running truck. If not, then can you advance the timing about 1/4" on the crank dampener? this is about 4-5* and should make a huge difference till you can get a proper guage on the pump.



Hope this helps, Greg L

 

[Heepdriver]

Thanks for the very good description, I kind of had that don't touch the stars ain't right kind of felling, but did it anyway. I don't even remember how many bones I broke as a child that way. I'll try your trick with the crank. one question when my pump broke free of the gear the pump would jump. I like to mark things with a permanent marker. does that slotted plastic piece in the side really hold the pump from turning when lined up with the "finger"?

 

[Lsfarm]

pump jumping

I personally don't use the plastic pin on the pump. But I have had the pump jump when the gear gear breaks loose. I'm not sure if the plastic pin will hold the pump if it wants to move.



If your pump jumped out of position and you had a jury-rigged guage on the pump, you are pretty lucky that the truck even runs. When the pump jumps back out of postion it takes me a few moments of head scratching to figure out the correct course of action to get everything back where it needs to be. And this is with a correct depth guage on the pump and pump position numbers written down.



If you can't get back to the original timing location, then the 1/4" advance method will help. I'd beg, borrow, steal or purchase a correct depth guage for the job. I'd also recommend replacing the lock washer on the injection pump nut/gear. They tend to collapse and crack in two. Then the timing can slip and the lock washer pieces fall into the gear train. Not a nice situation. the lock washer is available from cummins and from several vendors on the TDR, Piers for one.



Hope all this helps, let us know how it works out.



Greg L. The Noise Nazi.

 

[Heepdriver]

I did replace the lock washer. I've made friends with the local comunity college diesel instructor who owns a cummins 12V as does his father and father in law, he sent me to the TDR when I bought mine as well. I go to him or the mechanic at the local cummins shop for advice before I tear into something. They just aren't as apt to speculate and I respect there reserve in an perfessional environment. Thats what the TDR is for, throw the ideas around and speculate on possibilitys.



To put the injection pump in time I cleaned the gear and marked TDC on the gear with a permanent marker, cking for TDC with the inj. 's out as they were replaced as well. using the jury-rigged guage to find where the pump was. I thought about 7 degrees. then turn ahead and mark 14 degrees on the pump shaft with the permanent marker. pop loose and turn motor until marks lined up. tighten and reck with guage. took a few times to get it to line up. the marks should still be there. I'm going to try it again on wed morning thats when me and Dad both have time again.



another queston you maay have an answer to is the inj. copper washers that came with the inj. were . 100 the ones off the old ones where . 070. what is the crush on these washers and should I have used thinner ones.



thank

 

[Heepdriver]

Went back in today ad reset the inj. pump timing. the first thing that I did was ck were it was. with out a guage I looked in through the hole for the "finger" and at TDC it was only entering view at the top of the hole and used to line up perfectly. sure enough retarded timing. on the first try I ended up on the other side of the hole just advanced. I guess that half dozen practice runs the other night helped. now it reminds me of my old boss's Peterbuilt. reduced smoke unless romped on, not as smooth, but on the top end at fast highway speeds much smoother than ever before. and I did lose off idle power though, the egt's are down and turbo responds better but boost guage fluctuates a little again. runnin good and pullin strong.



thanks Lsfarm Oo.



what is the limit for safe timing?



how do injector depth set with the copper washers and spray angle effect where inj timing should set at?



the stumble at cold start up, about how many degrees of timing does that problem start at? to give me an idea of how much opposite i have gone from stock.

 

[Lsfarm]

Timing

I glad to hear that your truck is running better. It sounds like it might be a slight bit too advanced, but untill you have the correct depth guage to put on the pump I'd leave well enough alone. The lower power at low rpms is the indication that I'm basing my 'too advanced' opinion on.



Less smoke, lower egt's, better cold starting and usually a little better fuel mileage are the usual benefits of slightly advanced timing. A bit more knock and rattle is normal, but roughness is not.



I'm not sure about the stumble at cold start-up. With slightly advanced timing the engines usually run better cold than at stock timing. So I'm not sure this is the result of the timing or not. Maybe those injectors??



The best timing for most trucks is from 15-17 degrees. Any higher then you will put the headgasket at risk from the higher combustion chamber pressures, and will experience some performance loss at low rpm



The copper injector washers effect the diameter of the spray pattern in the cylinder. This can be too wide from a thick washer and the spray pattern can miss the depression or combustion chamber in the top of the piston. Or with too thin a washer the spray pattern will be smaller when it hits the piston head, and maybe be too concentrated?? I don't know if there is any way to compensate for this with injection timing. I'm not sure, I trust the experts to decide what the desired washer thickness is for each type injector. I'd call Piers and see if he knows which washer would work best with those injectors from a Ford/Cummins truck. I'm not sure they are much bigger than some of the stock 12v Dodge injectors??



Hope this helps Greg L

 

[Lsfarm]

Review

I just re-read this thread from the top, and want to comment on a few things.



The 12v engine can make considerably more power with the same injectors just by adjusting the pump or changing the fuel plate profile or location. So the version of the Cummins engine in the Ford application may not actually have bigger injectors, but may just have a different fuel plate profile to get the higher HP. I really don't know about this version of the engine. Maybe somone with some Ford experience can help you out with this.



Most 12v guys go with the marine engine injectors, they provide a significant HP increase along with plenty of smoke [if you want smoke]



Resetting the timing is a precision job, the width of a pencil mark on the crank dampener is half a degree of pump timing. Determining top-dead-center can be messed up easily and result in having everything messed up. I'd suggest finding someone in your area with the correct guages and experience and getting it set to about 16 degrees +/- . 5 . A correct set of timing tools costs about $250-300 so if you find someone to set your timing for $150 or so they are paying for their tools and charging for their time. And it only needs to be done once.



You have not mentioned the KDP, and your posts don't have a signature yet, have you taken the front cover off and either tabbed or peened the Killer Dowel Pin yet?? This is an engine killer item. If not put this job at the top of your list of things to do.



The best bang for your buck on a 12v engine is a set of 3k governor springs, and a fuel plate. These two items with timing set at 16* really wake up the 12v engine and put a grin on the driver for many months. And the cost is minimal.



To fill in your signature, go to the 'discussion forums' tab above, click, select 'user control panel' , click and select 'edit user profile' and fill in your truck information, year, etc. This will help us help you. If you fill in your location in NC, you might find someone nearby with tools and experience that can help you with your truck, or recommend someone, or an event nearby.



Hope all this helps, Good luck, Greg L

 

[vssman]

Great advice Greg!

 

[Heepdriver]

thanks for the great advice and I want to clear up one of my questions. the inj pump timing is not so advanced that it runs rough. how retarded does the pump need to be before it stumbles? and acts like it is cold.



My truck came out of the junk yard ( totaled hard ) and has had bad injectors from day one I had been told this from multiple people. and the truck is much smoother now and boost guage doesn't jump near as much as it used to and shut down is not as violent. with any of the inj pump timing setting that I have tried sence changing the injectors.



Most of the diesel mechanics I have talked to said that they were leary of the marine inj due to the different spray patern unless you change the piston. that and I did not want smoke all the time. These inj should not be much larger than a 215 or so inj, but should be bigger than my 160's with 140,000 miles them. that and I got them brand new with copper o-rings shipped to the door for 98 bucks!



I have been into other injection pumps and even rebuilt injector's for larger 250 small cam 1 series cummins and white industries multifuel diesels used in the military trucks. I build gears and install lockers. I am no strainger to a precision job. I would like to think that that is the only way I can jury rig a dial indicator and actully get my truck back in working order, I just do not know anyone that knows this vehicle and can walk me through the things I have never done. As far as the tool I bought it was sposed to be right and was even identified by a cummins certified mechanic as the timing tool needed. it is a snap on. but he also told me on another occation that I had adjusted my fuel rack adjustment screw instead of my AFC. He had me worried until I got on here. the hardest part about owning one of these trucks as a gas mechanic from a ford honda VW subaru toyota background is getting the correct info to proced. Off the subject but the other day asking a chevy mechanic about the internals of a 2wd turbo 400 for use with a DIVORSE t-case he insisted that I need a 4x4 case and output shaft for a 4x4 aplication. By the end of the conversation it turned out he didn't know that divorse t-cases even exsisted or what they were. but he sure was adimant that he was right and I had no idea what i was talking about and it could never work. three drive shafts under a truck I must be crazy!



the Kdp was tabed over a year ago with a home made tab when i went after some oil leaks and it was actually hanging out of the hole a little. thanks TDR for the heads up.



My signiture showing up on the bottom of my posts is something I have not figured out how to do. it is there if you click on my name, or at least it shows up for me.



I am looking at 3000 GSK kit next and just cannot wait for my next lovely experience of standing on my head and trying to squeeze and work at the end of arms length and be frustrated to no end for hours on end only to probably have to mess with adjustments for a week after. but it realy is all worth it when you get to roll on the throttle in second coming around a turn do a big fishtail in a 7,000 pound lifted truck on 35's.



The cam plate is a home ground unit slid all the way forward. was almost all the way back stock. 32 or so lbs of boost all time max before inj and timing. still have not gone after it yet to see what it will do. 26 so far being fairly easy. waiting on my BHAF that I ordered this week and my down pipe from a buddy so I can install my 4" exhaust at the same time.



I don't mean to come accross as a pain. I would love any assistance in timing my truck and making sure that it is dead on. but it must be close cause it runs good, more initial pull and power, 2nd in the rain is hard not to spin.



thanks for all the ideas and assistance. and if you ever need a vacation.

 

[sewman]

Sounds like your going to have a fast truck soon. You might try searching the archives here cuz there's alot of info on timing,injectors & etc.

And one more thing my truck goes sideways in 3rd around corners.

Bob