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New Member, Needs Help!
- Thread starter DonTX
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boatpuller
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I still would dump some fuel conditioner/biocide into the system, poor quality/contaminated fuel may still be part of your problem if it had been sitting for 2 years before you purchased it, just running clean fuel through it may not clean it out enough. Maybe even fill you fuel filter with injector cleaner to give the injectors a real strong hit of cleaner. I like to try the easy stuff first.
Thanks,
Caleb
Thanks,
Caleb
VE's bust off almost instantly... p7100's crank a little, but yes, your VE should light very quickly
I sure know what LMcCary is talking about, got a batch of bad fuel once on the road in the Kenworth, that 3406b did not like bad fuel! Went thru a case of filters in a hurry, amazing how bad that black slimy crap does in a filter.
I don't think that bad fuel is the problem, even though sitting a lot, it was kept running short trips and the previous owner ALWAYS ran biocide in it, and cautioned me to do the same. I put almost two gallons of fresh fuel in yesterday into the DAVCO to get it primed, so at least it ran on very fresh fuel from there yesterday, still the same type problem. The DAVCO for those that have not seen or used them, filters from the OUTSIDE of the filter, under a plastic dome so you can actually see if there is crud on the filter, and the fuel level rises as it gets fouled on the bottom. Real neat setup especially for troubleshooting.
I was especially intrigued by the injector pop pressure information. Somehow to me, it just "seems" like the injectors are not popping easily enough. I had not considered that sitting around could in essence change the pop pressure! All I could think of is the pump changing to not produce enough pressure. What you guys are saying there sure makes sense.
It has a 100 gallon tank, when I got it home it was low, I put in maybe 70 or 80 gallons of fresh fuel.
Hmmmmm, you sure got me thinking about them injectors.
I don't think that bad fuel is the problem, even though sitting a lot, it was kept running short trips and the previous owner ALWAYS ran biocide in it, and cautioned me to do the same. I put almost two gallons of fresh fuel in yesterday into the DAVCO to get it primed, so at least it ran on very fresh fuel from there yesterday, still the same type problem. The DAVCO for those that have not seen or used them, filters from the OUTSIDE of the filter, under a plastic dome so you can actually see if there is crud on the filter, and the fuel level rises as it gets fouled on the bottom. Real neat setup especially for troubleshooting.
I was especially intrigued by the injector pop pressure information. Somehow to me, it just "seems" like the injectors are not popping easily enough. I had not considered that sitting around could in essence change the pop pressure! All I could think of is the pump changing to not produce enough pressure. What you guys are saying there sure makes sense.
It has a 100 gallon tank, when I got it home it was low, I put in maybe 70 or 80 gallons of fresh fuel.
Hmmmmm, you sure got me thinking about them injectors.
If your pump has a manual shut off (lever on the back side) you can remove the plunger from the solonoid (that's how it is spelled) and can that way know it isn't related to the solonoid. Should you do this routine, make certain BEFORE you start the engine that you can move the stop lever to kill the engine. You can then move to the next step as there is no other electrical involvment with the fuel. OOps. Do you have an electric fuel pump anywhere in the system? Do you have a fuel delivery pressure gage?
In my experience, if the engine will start sometimes and perform correctly, then you are looking for an intermitent interupt in the fuel delivery. Fuel at the injectors does indicate that the pump is pushing fuel but it does not totally verify that there is adequate pressure on the high side to pop the injector. You would need an injector on the line to see if it is atomizing. Don't breath the atomized fuel or get your flesh anywhere near the high pressure jet of fuel.
You mention dry seals. There are some places that the pump can ingest air if the delivery pressure becomes inadequate. If there is air in the injection pump it will not pop the injectors.
If there is adequate and safe space in the engine compartment to rig a douch bag flow to the primary pressure pump, you can verify (rule in /rule out) some sections of the fuel system.
You can eventually satisfy your mind as to the last step of pulling the pump and going to a rebuild shop.
Best of luck and be sure to post the final result. It is with this information that we can better run these old faithful dogs. As good as they usually are, they can be tough sometimes.
James
In my experience, if the engine will start sometimes and perform correctly, then you are looking for an intermitent interupt in the fuel delivery. Fuel at the injectors does indicate that the pump is pushing fuel but it does not totally verify that there is adequate pressure on the high side to pop the injector. You would need an injector on the line to see if it is atomizing. Don't breath the atomized fuel or get your flesh anywhere near the high pressure jet of fuel.
You mention dry seals. There are some places that the pump can ingest air if the delivery pressure becomes inadequate. If there is air in the injection pump it will not pop the injectors.
If there is adequate and safe space in the engine compartment to rig a douch bag flow to the primary pressure pump, you can verify (rule in /rule out) some sections of the fuel system.
You can eventually satisfy your mind as to the last step of pulling the pump and going to a rebuild shop.
Best of luck and be sure to post the final result. It is with this information that we can better run these old faithful dogs. As good as they usually are, they can be tough sometimes.
James
Well, I am stumped for now. Want over checked the batteries, fully charged on the hygrometer. Fuel had not drained down, fresh fuel in the DAVCO unit. Tried to start it, no luck. Cranked and cranked, great starter speed, but would not start. Cracked an injector line at the injector, pumping fuel big time. No smoke out of the exhause pipe (on an rv you can see it in the mirror)
I appreciate the sitting injector needing too much pressure, but all six of them? I would rather think the pump pressure for some reason.
Another clue. When I bought it 200 miles ago, it did NOT seem to have a starting problem, and strange as it sounds, the starting seemed to get progressively worse since then, even though it has now had five new batteries, new davco filter, and new lift pump!
I appreciate the sitting injector needing too much pressure, but all six of them? I would rather think the pump pressure for some reason.
Another clue. When I bought it 200 miles ago, it did NOT seem to have a starting problem, and strange as it sounds, the starting seemed to get progressively worse since then, even though it has now had five new batteries, new davco filter, and new lift pump!
Don, 1stgen4evr asked you about the primary pump. Is it working? It should put up 10 to 20psi to the injection pump. Otherwise the injection pump will pull the fuel into(vapor lock). Second, check the solenoid valve. Take out the plunger and spring. Be sure that your mechanical shut off is working. If not you can place a piece of steel plate over the turbo inlet to shut it down. This should only be used for emergencies. Third, if none of this is your problem, have all six injectors checked. If the injectors are ok, well it may be time to take your inj. pump in for a repair. Any way, do the first two checks and get back to us.
Industrial? You think so? Why would cummins sell an industrial engine for automotive use? I thought the B in 6bt stood for automotive. I had assumed heater stuff just was not an option in 1988 from everything I have indicates. That is an interesting point to pursue. They got something covering up the data on the engine.
By the way LMcCary, the fuel lift pump pressure, BY THE COMMINS BOOK, is 3 to 5 psi normal, They also have a caution to NEVER EXCEED 10 PSI. I am putting on a 2psi switch that will light a lamp on the dash when it drops below 2 psi This is for the diaphram pumps used on some of the early Dodges with the VE Boxch injector pump, at least my friend has one on his Dodge Truck. Thru my messing around, I have proved that it will run and perform pretty darned well with no lift pump whatever!
By the way LMcCary, the fuel lift pump pressure, BY THE COMMINS BOOK, is 3 to 5 psi normal, They also have a caution to NEVER EXCEED 10 PSI. I am putting on a 2psi switch that will light a lamp on the dash when it drops below 2 psi This is for the diaphram pumps used on some of the early Dodges with the VE Boxch injector pump, at least my friend has one on his Dodge Truck. Thru my messing around, I have proved that it will run and perform pretty darned well with no lift pump whatever!
6BT, 6BTA = 6 cylinders, B series, Turbocharged, Aftercooled. I thought you have an RV. RV is not automotive. Industrial engines don't have grid heaters. Prior 88/89 there wasn't an automotive application for the B Series, so that would make them all industrial eh?
What outside temps are you seeing with this slow cranking? Get that spring and plunger removed from that solenoid yet?
BTW, you're switch/light will get alot of use, as the diaphram lift pumps hardly keep up with a 5800lb empty stock pickup truck, let alone whatever your's weighs. It will easily be sucked down to zero quite often. Your best option will be to install a low pressure piston lift pump, designed for use with the VE pump. But thats for another thread.
What outside temps are you seeing with this slow cranking? Get that spring and plunger removed from that solenoid yet?
BTW, you're switch/light will get alot of use, as the diaphram lift pumps hardly keep up with a 5800lb empty stock pickup truck, let alone whatever your's weighs. It will easily be sucked down to zero quite often. Your best option will be to install a low pressure piston lift pump, designed for use with the VE pump. But thats for another thread.
:-{} Most interesting. One of the very first things I did when I got this machine, was to accumulate (from EBay mostly) older Cummins service, operating, and troubleshooting manuals. I was fully aware that the current crop of 5. 9's are quite a bit different, and that is why I jumped on this "1st Gen" board. My artificial knowledge comes pretty much from those Cummins publications period.
In going back thru them, in one place it indicates that the B stands for Automotive. In others they clearly show the B model series, using the B in industrial applications. In the BIG "B Series Shop Manual" 1994 edition, they indicate that the difference between "automotive" and "industrial", the only two types they claim to produce, is that the number of cyl is not used in the nomenclature. Their example is that a 4BTA3. 9 is an industrial engine, and a B5. 9 - 190 would be an automotive engine (190 hp example). Another 2000 edition manual is labeled "Operation and Maintenance Manual Automotive, Recreational Vehicle, Bus, and Industrial B5. 9 Series Engines. In another 1991 publication, they repeat that all automotive engines are turbocharged, and that the nomemclature for automotive engines, which they say are used in "Delivery Trucks, Yard Tractors, Small Moving Vans, etc" do not use the number of cylinders or the T for Turbo in the designation.
I guess I can conclude that back in those days, there was not actually an industrial and an automotive build, just options that made the B series more useable in each type application.
The only mention of a grid heater, states (Cummins talking now) that "It is available for B Series automotive ratings with an in-line injection fuel pump and industrial jacket water aftercooled with a Bosch in-line injection pump". Since mine has the VE44 rotary injection pump, that alone would explain why I have no grid heater. Comments to Cummins stuff and Dodge guys? If I recall correctly, did Dodge not use the rotary VE pump in the very first editions? Did they use a heater grid in them? What do they use as engine nomenclature?:{
I gotta go work on it now, later.
In going back thru them, in one place it indicates that the B stands for Automotive. In others they clearly show the B model series, using the B in industrial applications. In the BIG "B Series Shop Manual" 1994 edition, they indicate that the difference between "automotive" and "industrial", the only two types they claim to produce, is that the number of cyl is not used in the nomenclature. Their example is that a 4BTA3. 9 is an industrial engine, and a B5. 9 - 190 would be an automotive engine (190 hp example). Another 2000 edition manual is labeled "Operation and Maintenance Manual Automotive, Recreational Vehicle, Bus, and Industrial B5. 9 Series Engines. In another 1991 publication, they repeat that all automotive engines are turbocharged, and that the nomemclature for automotive engines, which they say are used in "Delivery Trucks, Yard Tractors, Small Moving Vans, etc" do not use the number of cylinders or the T for Turbo in the designation.
I guess I can conclude that back in those days, there was not actually an industrial and an automotive build, just options that made the B series more useable in each type application.
The only mention of a grid heater, states (Cummins talking now) that "It is available for B Series automotive ratings with an in-line injection fuel pump and industrial jacket water aftercooled with a Bosch in-line injection pump". Since mine has the VE44 rotary injection pump, that alone would explain why I have no grid heater. Comments to Cummins stuff and Dodge guys? If I recall correctly, did Dodge not use the rotary VE pump in the very first editions? Did they use a heater grid in them? What do they use as engine nomenclature?:{
I gotta go work on it now, later.
Oh, I forgot to add, the temperature here is consistantly in the upper 80"s, I live in the lower Rio Grande Valley, near Harlingen TX.
Another tidbit, this installation came with a HP rating of 170 or 180. A Cummins dealer turned the HP up to 210. It seems that all agree this is not a problem with these engines, and the limit of 210 was only to satisfy the Allison 545 transmission limits of HP.
BgilbertBGilbert : I considered the piston pump, but all publications say not to do that with the VE44 Bosch. I surely think the new diaphram is putting out enough pressure to start it at least.
The weight of the coach is 18,700 lbs fairly empty. They come with an Allison 545 four speed no lock converter of course, and a gear vendor overdrive, you can split shift it to get seven gears that way. It is geared fairly low in my estimation, I am running 2200 at 65mph in overdrive. With all that gearing, OD, and the slippy torque converter, it has never figured out what work really is yet.
Another tidbit, this installation came with a HP rating of 170 or 180. A Cummins dealer turned the HP up to 210. It seems that all agree this is not a problem with these engines, and the limit of 210 was only to satisfy the Allison 545 transmission limits of HP.
BgilbertBGilbert : I considered the piston pump, but all publications say not to do that with the VE44 Bosch. I surely think the new diaphram is putting out enough pressure to start it at least.
The weight of the coach is 18,700 lbs fairly empty. They come with an Allison 545 four speed no lock converter of course, and a gear vendor overdrive, you can split shift it to get seven gears that way. It is geared fairly low in my estimation, I am running 2200 at 65mph in overdrive. With all that gearing, OD, and the slippy torque converter, it has never figured out what work really is yet.
Don/TX said:
A permanent fuel pressure gauge would say otherwise. Zero psi will open ones eyes
and they'll start to listen. The low pressure piston lift pump pn 3936320 is designed by Cummins for use with the VE rotary fuel pump. Industrial use. Says right there in the big bad T&R manual pub 10/99.
There's by the book and there's real world.
No fair, you got that late model books! :-laf Thanks for that reference and part number too, I really appreciate that.
I wish I had been here when I bought the diaphram pump, I almost went with the piston anyway, thinking of a pressure regulator or such, but deferred to the superior intelligence of Cummins.
Tried to get off the fuel shutoff this morning, boy is that thing ever hidden under stuff. No way to put a socket or box end on it, hove to be an open end, and the swing will be so short I may have to modify something to work, either that or tear the pump half apart. Same old story since I got this thing, they don't seem to make wrenches in metric that fit the cummins sizes. The solenoid is a 24mm (or so the book says), and sure enough, not one of the four metric sets I just bought had a 24 mm in it. Are ALL cummins bolts made intentionally of a size that is not included in wrench sets?
Anyhow to eliminate them, I changed the fuel filters, put on brand new ones full of diesel of course. Bled everthing, including injectors, then cranked and cranked and cranked, never got it started even!
I wish I had been here when I bought the diaphram pump, I almost went with the piston anyway, thinking of a pressure regulator or such, but deferred to the superior intelligence of Cummins.
Tried to get off the fuel shutoff this morning, boy is that thing ever hidden under stuff. No way to put a socket or box end on it, hove to be an open end, and the swing will be so short I may have to modify something to work, either that or tear the pump half apart. Same old story since I got this thing, they don't seem to make wrenches in metric that fit the cummins sizes. The solenoid is a 24mm (or so the book says), and sure enough, not one of the four metric sets I just bought had a 24 mm in it. Are ALL cummins bolts made intentionally of a size that is not included in wrench sets?
Anyhow to eliminate them, I changed the fuel filters, put on brand new ones full of diesel of course. Bled everthing, including injectors, then cranked and cranked and cranked, never got it started even!
On our VE setup to access the solenoids, we grind off the excess portion of the support bracket/mount that is in the way of your wrench to remove the solenoid. On the side of the road, some have taken a set of pliers or vicegrips and worked the top part of the bracket back and worth til it broke off right at the top of the injection pump to where one can get their wrench or tool onto the solenoid. But with you have a different application, the top portion of said bracket maybe getting used for something... throttle linkage, air compressor or who knows. IF not, cut it off or break it off, so you can get at that solenoid.
Hey, someone that sees and understands the problem!! Let me send you a photo of it if I can get your info, maybe I can post them on this roundtable, not sure. The bracket is far too thick to bend off, not even sure yet just what is holding what on there, mostly a throttle and cruise control bracket I think, the bracket goes around the injector tubes and is hooked on the bottom of the pump, not sure just what is going on there. Gotta wait til the stores open back up. .
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