-
TDR Magazine subscribers receive more than the magazine! You also gain additional forum privileges!
Details here: TDR Privileges
Subscribe to TDR Magazine here: https://www.tdr-online.com/
New Member, Needs Help!
- Thread starter DonTX
- Start Date
Attention: TDR Forum Junkies To the point: Click this link and check out the Front Page News story(ies) where we are tracking the introduction of the 2025 Ram HD trucks.
Thanks, TDR Staff
- Status
. Looks like if you could just cut/break off that little nub of the bracket, right above the two allen bolts in the picture, you could get a wrench at it.My bus fleet has NO 12 valve engines with grid heaters. It's the norm.
I haven't read every one's post in thei very long thread but I have gathered that the crenking speed is slow with new batteries. Starter and connection will all need tested and looked at. Test with a DVOM and pull the starter and take it apart and look inside for wear.
The VE engines fire instantly. Like 1/2 revolution it would seem. If it's cold out say, 30°... ... then give it 3/4 revolution.
I haven't read every one's post in thei very long thread but I have gathered that the crenking speed is slow with new batteries. Starter and connection will all need tested and looked at. Test with a DVOM and pull the starter and take it apart and look inside for wear.
The VE engines fire instantly. Like 1/2 revolution it would seem. If it's cold out say, 30°... ... then give it 3/4 revolution.
Yeh, that tab don't serve any function. I am sure that hole is a guide for the manual stop rod to guide in on a stationary unit installation. Might just try getting rid of it.
For Greenleaf: No, new batteries and full charge cranks it what I believe is PLENTY fast. I have also done the feel for heat deal at all connections after the long cranking periods, no problems there. If this keeps up though, I will need a new starter! :
I have a friend in CA that has one identical to mine (maybe the only other one built!) and his fires instantly too, same exact setup except only two fuel filters.
I was running 70-75 on the way home, NO lift pump at all, it never lacked power, missed, or showed that it was pump-less.
I am anxious to remove the stop solenoid if for no other reason than to eliminate it. It still seems logical to me that it would not pump out lots of fuel like it does when cranking with the injector connectors cracked if the solenoid were not opening. We will see.
For Greenleaf: No, new batteries and full charge cranks it what I believe is PLENTY fast. I have also done the feel for heat deal at all connections after the long cranking periods, no problems there. If this keeps up though, I will need a new starter! :
I have a friend in CA that has one identical to mine (maybe the only other one built!) and his fires instantly too, same exact setup except only two fuel filters.
I was running 70-75 on the way home, NO lift pump at all, it never lacked power, missed, or showed that it was pump-less.
I am anxious to remove the stop solenoid if for no other reason than to eliminate it. It still seems logical to me that it would not pump out lots of fuel like it does when cranking with the injector connectors cracked if the solenoid were not opening. We will see.
Don, the reason I mentioned the primer pump is two fold. One it is eaiser to prime the VE, two, it will helps the VE to live longer. The VE uses fuel to lubricate and cool. If it is struggling too hard to pull up fuel, it will wear out sooner. I know that VW and some industrail applications do not use a primary pump, but most of them are gravity fed. Sorry if I made a mistake on the PSI of the pump. I do not have access to a Cummins repair book at home. My 1996 P pump 5. 9 cummins is fed by a 22PSI electric inline fuel pump. Works real well.
Do you have acess to some VE style 5. 9 injectors? You can pull a fuel line at the easiest to reach injector, and install the injector, place a clear plastic bottle under the injector and turn the engine over watching the injector spray. I always keep a fire extinguisher handy just in case. A habit from the gasoline days.
Good luck on pulling the solenoid. Sometimes I have to modify a wrench to fit. Did you say that the solenoid was 24mm. If so a worn 15/16 will sometimes fit. A handy number to remember is . 0394. Take this number a multiply it by the metric size which equals to inch size. 24mm equals . 945 which is 7. 5 thousand larger than 15/16 of an inch.
Keep us posted.
Do you have acess to some VE style 5. 9 injectors? You can pull a fuel line at the easiest to reach injector, and install the injector, place a clear plastic bottle under the injector and turn the engine over watching the injector spray. I always keep a fire extinguisher handy just in case. A habit from the gasoline days.
Good luck on pulling the solenoid. Sometimes I have to modify a wrench to fit. Did you say that the solenoid was 24mm. If so a worn 15/16 will sometimes fit. A handy number to remember is . 0394. Take this number a multiply it by the metric size which equals to inch size. 24mm equals . 945 which is 7. 5 thousand larger than 15/16 of an inch.
Keep us posted.
"I am anxious to remove the stop solenoid if for no other reason than to eliminate it. It still seems logical to me that it would not pump out lots of fuel like it does when cranking with the injector connectors cracked if the solenoid were not opening. "
I agree with your logic on the fuel flow and I still think you are ingesting air when stopped. You will however eliminate the solonoid as a possible when you remove the plunger. PB may be able to suggest where the pumps will get air. I know for a fact that all three of my 93 model trucks will on occasion be hard to fire up after sitting ( a few days) with the fuel low in the tank. I have not experienced difficulty fireing up after the initial start up. If you crack the fuel lines and spin the engine over, does that aid in getting the beast running? If yes, then you are getting air in the high pressure system for sure.
On the wrench, be prepared to bend to whatever is required to remove the solonoid body. It can be a tough nut to crack.
James
I agree with your logic on the fuel flow and I still think you are ingesting air when stopped. You will however eliminate the solonoid as a possible when you remove the plunger. PB may be able to suggest where the pumps will get air. I know for a fact that all three of my 93 model trucks will on occasion be hard to fire up after sitting ( a few days) with the fuel low in the tank. I have not experienced difficulty fireing up after the initial start up. If you crack the fuel lines and spin the engine over, does that aid in getting the beast running? If yes, then you are getting air in the high pressure system for sure.
On the wrench, be prepared to bend to whatever is required to remove the solonoid body. It can be a tough nut to crack.
James
1stgen4evr: Your problems sound like check valve leakdown, pretty common on diesels I have had, especially when parking with the fuel tank downhill from the engine and with low fuel. I virtually eliminated that by the DAVCO unit, it has a new big check valve in it, less than a foot away from the diaphram fuel pump, also brand new, also with a check valve in it, also so you can easily see that it has not leaked down. . Something I found strange today, when changine the fuel filters, they both seemed "low" on fuel level, especially the second one, although it had not even run since thorough priming. Seems physically impossible for that to have happened. After todays episode, I am feeling more and more that ingesting air in the VE is probable, no other explanation can be justified from what we know, with the small amount of ingested air in the fuel compressing and not allowing the injector to work. I wish to heck I DID have another injector to hook on to see what the heck is happening, would be nice. Might see if a Cummins place would loan me one. This "thing" is getting worse by the day almost. I thoroughly bled air today, and never did get it started even! Acts like none of the injectors are opening at all ever.
LMcCary: The diaphram pump has a lever on it so you can prime in fine shape, works well. I am well aware that the injector pump needs to be lubricated and cooled, that is why I am concerned that having run for an unknown amount of time with no lift pump whatsoever, it may have damaged the injector pump, i, e, now sucking air because of that, or pumping low pressure or such. Like I said above, even though I am putting on new stuff, the problem gets worse! What I need is a good 31/32 wrench! I will go to some tool places tomorrow and see what I can scare up, maybe grind out a 15/16 old wrench a little even. With a torch I can make some of the damnedest wrenches! Thanks for the tip on removing that map line, will check that out. I am thinking I can just bend that lug down out of the way perhaps enough to get to it. :-laf
LMcCary: The diaphram pump has a lever on it so you can prime in fine shape, works well. I am well aware that the injector pump needs to be lubricated and cooled, that is why I am concerned that having run for an unknown amount of time with no lift pump whatsoever, it may have damaged the injector pump, i, e, now sucking air because of that, or pumping low pressure or such. Like I said above, even though I am putting on new stuff, the problem gets worse! What I need is a good 31/32 wrench! I will go to some tool places tomorrow and see what I can scare up, maybe grind out a 15/16 old wrench a little even. With a torch I can make some of the damnedest wrenches! Thanks for the tip on removing that map line, will check that out. I am thinking I can just bend that lug down out of the way perhaps enough to get to it. :-laf
i've read this whole saga from start to end and i'm sold on the "silly noid" try a crows foot and a wobble socket.
i had to pull mine beside the highway at 9 pm in real crappy conditions i used a small chisel to work it loose,it sucked!
but after removal she ran fine!
if promblem persist,please feel free to call me at(386)-328-2818 ask for john jr
your our first(pre-first gen) Oo. i'm over the pond in fla.
i had to pull mine beside the highway at 9 pm in real crappy conditions i used a small chisel to work it loose,it sucked!
but after removal she ran fine!
if promblem persist,please feel free to call me at(386)-328-2818 ask for john jr
your our first(pre-first gen) Oo. i'm over the pond in fla.
Last edited:
Fuel pressure on the VE pump inlet should not drop below 3psi according to the manual..... however..... in my opinion that is too low, even though the VE has it's own lift pump that is still too low.
You should see no less than 8-10psi on a mildly tweaked engine/pump.
Don the owner the shop I worked at (PDR) is familiar with motorhomes and he can likely guide you straight to the problem. His name is Piers..... just give a call and ask if he's there and/or can he call you back about this... . if he can't help you find the problem then sell the thing...
BTW, tell them "bob" said to give them a call about this and you'll get as much help as they can provide... .
bob... .
You should see no less than 8-10psi on a mildly tweaked engine/pump.
Don the owner the shop I worked at (PDR) is familiar with motorhomes and he can likely guide you straight to the problem. His name is Piers..... just give a call and ask if he's there and/or can he call you back about this... . if he can't help you find the problem then sell the thing...
BTW, tell them "bob" said to give them a call about this and you'll get as much help as they can provide... .
bob... .
I'm sure it was mentioned. . and I simply missed it. The lift pump acts as the "check valve" to keep fuel in the fuel lines and prevent back flow of fuel.
Any air, no matter how small amout, will cause hard starting. Often the problen is a leak located along the suction side of the supply system and will not always show as a leak untill it becomes so bad that the engine will fail to start at all.
This has been my experience and the brpobel is generally found to be a cracked fuel fitting or a rotted aluminum filter mount/base.
-S
Any air, no matter how small amout, will cause hard starting. Often the problen is a leak located along the suction side of the supply system and will not always show as a leak untill it becomes so bad that the engine will fail to start at all.
This has been my experience and the brpobel is generally found to be a cracked fuel fitting or a rotted aluminum filter mount/base.
-S
My book says 3-5 PSI on the lift pump, copy attached. Has there been a change? I will have my gauge on mine today, permanently plumbed in the output line.
I have eliminated the sucking air possibility UP TO THE INJECTOR PUMP with the DAVCO unit. For those not familiar with this, you can go to www.davcotec.com for how it works, it also has a check valve in it. By its location, I am basically pouring air free fuel into the lift pump.
The crow foot just might be the answer, I will try that too, good advice, thanks.
Hey, "pre first generation". Damn, my own special title, I like that! So far though, I have really not found any differences between mine and the 1st gen Dodge units.
Thanks for the contacts guys, I will refrain from calls to them until I have eliminated the solenoid from the system.
At this point, it sure does appear that it is getting air, SOMEPLACE!
I have eliminated the sucking air possibility UP TO THE INJECTOR PUMP with the DAVCO unit. For those not familiar with this, you can go to www.davcotec.com for how it works, it also has a check valve in it. By its location, I am basically pouring air free fuel into the lift pump.
The crow foot just might be the answer, I will try that too, good advice, thanks.
Hey, "pre first generation". Damn, my own special title, I like that! So far though, I have really not found any differences between mine and the 1st gen Dodge units.
Thanks for the contacts guys, I will refrain from calls to them until I have eliminated the solenoid from the system.
At this point, it sure does appear that it is getting air, SOMEPLACE!
Don, just for grins I check my service manual and it does not list a lower pressure value for the primary pump, but it listed the max value of 25psi. This is not the first time that I have noticed a large disparity between Cummins service manuals. Here is a handy website for Dodge Cummins info. : http://www.dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/Facts/91specs.html
On the injector pressure I will check tomorrow in our Bosch manual. I am reasonably sure it is close to 200 bar (2900psi). The P pump is much higher, something like 260 bar (3800psi).
On the injector pressure I will check tomorrow in our Bosch manual. I am reasonably sure it is close to 200 bar (2900psi). The P pump is much higher, something like 260 bar (3800psi).
Yeah, I find that in my 6 book library of Cummins manuals. Part of my problem is that I collected ONLY the early stuff, hoping that would zero in more on my problems. As the learning curve progresses for Cummins, the later books I am sure change things. I appreciate your pointing out such changes when you see me quoting old stuff that is obsolete. I am not argumentative, I just don't know any better!
Had a little time, went to do big stuff and had all the wrong tools along mostly. I decided to check the return flow line, took it loose and had a great flow there. Then decided just for the heck of it, to bleed the system again, very thoroughly, all the way to the injectors. Plenty of fuel flow, no air apparent. 
Buttoned it all back up and went to try to start it. I had to reduce the level of fuel in the DAVCO, so loosened the top, and tried to start it. With a 30 second start routine, it had lowered the DAVCO a full inch! Sucker is for sure getting fuel! No luck starting it, just crank and crank.
Finally wanted to hear it run again, so gave it a shot of starting fluid, started right up and ran and sounded perfect. Let it run a while, then shut it off. Restarted it several times, no problems. I am sure tomorrow it will not start without starting fluid. Sleuthing the thing, I can only add that AFTER it ran 10 minutes or so, the cranking seemed to be faster. No idea why really, oil thinner I guess.
Even when it repeatedly restarted, it cranked longer each time than any other diesel I ever had, longer than it should have I feel. ALWAYS the restart cranked like the exact number of times each restart.
Anything new come to mind? Surely there is a clue in there somewheres.
I once had an injection pump that would not go to full fuel on startup, because the spring on the rack was tired and would not push it to full fuel. Startups were very slow. However a sniff of ether would induce fast startups as the engine would fire and the governor would pull the rack to idle.
I do not know how the ve works, but in diesel school we learned that at rest the injection pump is at full fuel, until rpms are reached to balance the governor. Every diesel I have ever worked on, cranking the injection system whether it be a pump, or unit injector, was at full fuel, until it started running on its own to balance the governor.
Maybe the pump is sticky and is having a hard time getting to full fuel for startup. Even though it may look like you have adequate fuel, you may well indeed not. When the engine is idling, crack a fuel line and see how much fuel squirting at the injector, I suspect you have much less while cranking.
What do you think?
Michael
I do not know how the ve works, but in diesel school we learned that at rest the injection pump is at full fuel, until rpms are reached to balance the governor. Every diesel I have ever worked on, cranking the injection system whether it be a pump, or unit injector, was at full fuel, until it started running on its own to balance the governor.
Maybe the pump is sticky and is having a hard time getting to full fuel for startup. Even though it may look like you have adequate fuel, you may well indeed not. When the engine is idling, crack a fuel line and see how much fuel squirting at the injector, I suspect you have much less while cranking.
What do you think?
Michael
Don, I am beginning to lean toward a tired injection pump. Does your pump have a KSB valve? Check your specs in the service manual. I do not remember the procedure, but the book gives a step by step diagnosis. This valve controls the starting timing. If this is ok then it is time for a pump test and/or repair. While the pump is being tested, have the injectors cleaned and tested.
No KSB. The book indicates they had some early type valving and did not use a KSB. Tired injector pump? Gosh I hope not at 40,000 miles, I think they are supposed to run longer than that. Guidance from others are pointing me towards an injector that is staying open, getting compression air in the fuel. I may try some injector cleaner for the heck of it.
Regardless, the injectors will be out, checked, and back long before I blame the pump.
Regardless, the injectors will be out, checked, and back long before I blame the pump.
- Status
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
Turbo Diesel Register
Issue 128 – Digital Version
Digital Magazines
FREE!
TDR Test Drive - Digital Edition
Renew
Subscribe
Gift Subscriptions
Back Issues
Subscription Status
Address Change Form
Buyer's Guides
Ram Diagnostic Trouble Codes
The Perfect Collection
The Perfect Collection Vol. II
TSB Updates
Dodge/Cummins Historical Overview
Cameron Collection
What Makes Us Tick?
Product Showcase
Advertising
