Don't forget the window net.
Roll cage needs to be certified as well.
David
Roll cage needs to be certified as well.
David
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Competition NHRA proposes pohibiting 4X4 faster then 9.99 call to action
- Thread starter COMP461
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I was just telling a buddy that this was the most valid thread I've seen on this forum in awhile; Preston, maybe we shouldn't make this about Comp...
Stefan's right, Eric Lowe is a diesel guy and has been really supportive of our efforts. Keep in mind the NHRA officials are really busy, so don't get mad, give up, or take it personally.
This rule may seem to "punish the fastest", but I seriously doubt the entire NHRA is out to get one individual in the diesel community. There's always got to be a cutoff for anything, but it doesn't mean it won't get changed later with a little work. Would it be better for diesel racers if none of us can go quicker than 12. 00? An "all or nothing" argument might not be the most persuasive.
BTW, who is it that's got a 4x4 in the 9's? Maybe multiple people? I haven't been following much lately (or maybe this is old news and I'm waaay out of the loop
)...
Stefan's right, Eric Lowe is a diesel guy and has been really supportive of our efforts. Keep in mind the NHRA officials are really busy, so don't get mad, give up, or take it personally.
This rule may seem to "punish the fastest", but I seriously doubt the entire NHRA is out to get one individual in the diesel community. There's always got to be a cutoff for anything, but it doesn't mean it won't get changed later with a little work. Would it be better for diesel racers if none of us can go quicker than 12. 00? An "all or nothing" argument might not be the most persuasive.
BTW, who is it that's got a 4x4 in the 9's? Maybe multiple people? I haven't been following much lately (or maybe this is old news and I'm waaay out of the loop
)...I don't think Preston actually thinks the NHRA is out to get just one guy, but the fact is that the rule will only affect one person right now, and unless there is some serious work happening with another 4x4 out there over the winter, it will only affect one guy next year too.
It would have been nice, if Greg could have given a little more information when he first posted this, instead of posting it so the rest of us can rant and rave about it till he decided to say something else. I have seen him on here since this post was started, so he either doesn't know anything else, which in that case this should have never been posted in the first place, or he is just trying to stir the pot. If this is actually true, then yes I agree that we need to rally the troops, but with only knowing what he mentioned in his first post, we are all wasting our time even discussing it.
It would have been nice, if Greg could have given a little more information when he first posted this, instead of posting it so the rest of us can rant and rave about it till he decided to say something else. I have seen him on here since this post was started, so he either doesn't know anything else, which in that case this should have never been posted in the first place, or he is just trying to stir the pot. If this is actually true, then yes I agree that we need to rally the troops, but with only knowing what he mentioned in his first post, we are all wasting our time even discussing it.
I agree with you Rhonda... ... . I'm SORRY Greg. But I'm still waiting on Eric to call.
My point on the 4X4, is not one person, it's just I've never seen a 2 wheel drive launch like a 4X4 . Why or what is the reason for the 9. 99 and the 4X4?
Darren ran a 10. 13 in Richmond with his 97 model 4X4 . I feel in Houston, we may see a 9 sec run. If it doesn't happen, then it just doesn't. He's picked up enough power since Richmond to do it. He's runnin a 1. 5 60 ft time and what 2 wheeler has that kinda hook? So we'll see. And like Ted said, as of now in America, that effects one person.
Rollcage certified, window net over a glass window, you got me there. Something tells me the worry is in the front end. Everything else is just other truck.
. . Preston. .
My point on the 4X4, is not one person, it's just I've never seen a 2 wheel drive launch like a 4X4 . Why or what is the reason for the 9. 99 and the 4X4?
Darren ran a 10. 13 in Richmond with his 97 model 4X4 . I feel in Houston, we may see a 9 sec run. If it doesn't happen, then it just doesn't. He's picked up enough power since Richmond to do it. He's runnin a 1. 5 60 ft time and what 2 wheeler has that kinda hook? So we'll see. And like Ted said, as of now in America, that effects one person.
Rollcage certified, window net over a glass window, you got me there. Something tells me the worry is in the front end. Everything else is just other truck.
. . Preston. .
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I thought I would just post the link, if the old rule was 12. 00 them we were living on borrowed time. And this is a improvement. But still needs work. In any case if you run faster then 9. 99 then a lot of rules go in to effect. I think we should approach NHRA with a 9. 99 or faster 4x4 rules , with reduced ride height.
I at this point see the 4 wheel drive as some what of a advantage , but in the future when purpose built race trucks start to show up . with wall to wall 33. 5 x 17 Hoosiers , and working four links. This will be the way to go.
OTHER RULE CHANGES BY CATEGORY
E. T. brackets
Any vehicle that runs faster than 135 mph must meet minimum requirements for 9. 99-second vehicles, which include an NHRA chassis certification, NHRA competition license, and updated safety requirements.
The Protective Clothing section states which jacket and/or pants are needed for 10. 00 and slower and 9. 99 and quicker supercharged, turbocharged, or nitrous-equipped cars, with or without a full OEM or . 024-inch steel firewall. General regulations
Plastic brackets to secure bottles filled with nitrous oxide are prohibited.
Any pressurized bottle used for pneumatic operation must be filled with compressed air, nitrogen, or CO2. All other materials are prohibited.
All blower restraint straps and fuel lines must be installed so that when the restraint straps are fully extended, no load is placed on any of the fuel lines.
The multi-disc clutch assembly for supercharged, nitrous-oxide-injected, and turbocharged vehicles must meet SFI Spec 1. 5 and must utilize an SFI Spec 6. 3 flywheel shield. All SFI Spec 6. 2 and 6. 3 titanium bellhousings must be reinspected and recertified annually. SFI Spec 6. 1 titanium and aluminum bellhousings and SFI 6. 2 or 6. 3 steel bellhousings must be reinspected and recertified every two years or as specified by the manufacturer.
In all NHRA competition, the use of titanium or aluminum studs and/or nuts is prohibited.
Four-wheel-drive is permitted per class requirements; four-wheel-drive vehicles running quicker than 9. 99 are prohibited. Beginning Jan. 1, 2006, all data recorders manufactured after that date must be NHRA accepted before being used in NHRA competition.
The Rulebook outlines the proper steps a racer must take to become eligible for contingency sponsor awards. All competitors must have purchased and be able to show proof of the product claimed as well as adhere to the specific decal-display requirements set forth by NHRA. All decals must be the exact size and design of a company’s contingency decal; an exact facsimile of the sponsor’s decal (size, color, design) is required if a racer chooses to use a painted version. One decal is required for each product posting, if applicable, and must be prominently positioned on the outer surfaces and be clearly visible on both sides of the vehicle beginning with the first round of eliminations, including class eliminations. Decals placed on vehicles once eliminations have begun will not be honored.
For each category posting, only one decal is permitted. Decals from competing companies for the same product posting will void all claims for that product. Stacking requires sponsor’s permission. Knowingly claiming products that are not in use on the vehicle for which the claim was made is defined as a fraudulent claim and will subject the participant to disciplinary action at the sole and absolute discretion of NHRA. Decals are available from the product manufacturer or the tech/registration trailer at divisional events.
I at this point see the 4 wheel drive as some what of a advantage , but in the future when purpose built race trucks start to show up . with wall to wall 33. 5 x 17 Hoosiers , and working four links. This will be the way to go.
OTHER RULE CHANGES BY CATEGORY
E. T. brackets
Any vehicle that runs faster than 135 mph must meet minimum requirements for 9. 99-second vehicles, which include an NHRA chassis certification, NHRA competition license, and updated safety requirements.
The Protective Clothing section states which jacket and/or pants are needed for 10. 00 and slower and 9. 99 and quicker supercharged, turbocharged, or nitrous-equipped cars, with or without a full OEM or . 024-inch steel firewall. General regulations
Plastic brackets to secure bottles filled with nitrous oxide are prohibited.
Any pressurized bottle used for pneumatic operation must be filled with compressed air, nitrogen, or CO2. All other materials are prohibited.
All blower restraint straps and fuel lines must be installed so that when the restraint straps are fully extended, no load is placed on any of the fuel lines.
The multi-disc clutch assembly for supercharged, nitrous-oxide-injected, and turbocharged vehicles must meet SFI Spec 1. 5 and must utilize an SFI Spec 6. 3 flywheel shield. All SFI Spec 6. 2 and 6. 3 titanium bellhousings must be reinspected and recertified annually. SFI Spec 6. 1 titanium and aluminum bellhousings and SFI 6. 2 or 6. 3 steel bellhousings must be reinspected and recertified every two years or as specified by the manufacturer.
In all NHRA competition, the use of titanium or aluminum studs and/or nuts is prohibited.
Four-wheel-drive is permitted per class requirements; four-wheel-drive vehicles running quicker than 9. 99 are prohibited. Beginning Jan. 1, 2006, all data recorders manufactured after that date must be NHRA accepted before being used in NHRA competition.
The Rulebook outlines the proper steps a racer must take to become eligible for contingency sponsor awards. All competitors must have purchased and be able to show proof of the product claimed as well as adhere to the specific decal-display requirements set forth by NHRA. All decals must be the exact size and design of a company’s contingency decal; an exact facsimile of the sponsor’s decal (size, color, design) is required if a racer chooses to use a painted version. One decal is required for each product posting, if applicable, and must be prominently positioned on the outer surfaces and be clearly visible on both sides of the vehicle beginning with the first round of eliminations, including class eliminations. Decals placed on vehicles once eliminations have begun will not be honored.
For each category posting, only one decal is permitted. Decals from competing companies for the same product posting will void all claims for that product. Stacking requires sponsor’s permission. Knowingly claiming products that are not in use on the vehicle for which the claim was made is defined as a fraudulent claim and will subject the participant to disciplinary action at the sole and absolute discretion of NHRA. Decals are available from the product manufacturer or the tech/registration trailer at divisional events.
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Personally, I agree with prohibiting 4x4 trucks for 9. 99 or faster until more research or studies can be done.
Whether it is ourselves out there, or friends or family, I don't want to be part of a rule change because of a serious accident that takes someone's life.
I would like to see some information on roll cages that meet 7. 50 - 9. 99 specs. Can they withstand a rollover of 5500lbs+ @ 130+ mph? Will the engines stay in the mounts? Etc. Etc. Are there studies or are we waiting for the first accident to determine if the rules are good enough?
If NHRA changes the rules without planning on researching more, then I have an issue, but if they are preventing the 9 second barrier until more can be determined, I think it is the responsible thing to do.
Darren ran a 10. 32 in Virginia. I estimated a 10. 17 based on some other factors but estimating and actually running it are not the same. I still stand that it will take over 900hp to make a 9 second pass at 5500lbs and I don't think nor do I support Darren (or any 4x4) running it at Houston. But nonetheless, 1/3 of a second is a long way away in drag racing. For those that think going fast is easy, it has taken 105hp and 7 mph to remove the last 3 tenths off Darren's ET.
Whether it is ourselves out there, or friends or family, I don't want to be part of a rule change because of a serious accident that takes someone's life.
I would like to see some information on roll cages that meet 7. 50 - 9. 99 specs. Can they withstand a rollover of 5500lbs+ @ 130+ mph? Will the engines stay in the mounts? Etc. Etc. Are there studies or are we waiting for the first accident to determine if the rules are good enough?
If NHRA changes the rules without planning on researching more, then I have an issue, but if they are preventing the 9 second barrier until more can be determined, I think it is the responsible thing to do. Darren ran a 10. 32 in Virginia. I estimated a 10. 17 based on some other factors but estimating and actually running it are not the same. I still stand that it will take over 900hp to make a 9 second pass at 5500lbs and I don't think nor do I support Darren (or any 4x4) running it at Houston. But nonetheless, 1/3 of a second is a long way away in drag racing. For those that think going fast is easy, it has taken 105hp and 7 mph to remove the last 3 tenths off Darren's ET.
For those that think going fast is easy, it has taken 105hp and 7 mph to remove the last 3 tenths off Darren's ET.
That's allot, and that 105 hp is hard to come by when your at the top... ... good on him to keep trying.
Jim
That's allot, and that 105 hp is hard to come by when your at the top... ... good on him to keep trying.
Jim
Steve St.Laurent
Staff Alumni
COMP461 said:
I do not believe that this will affect an ASO. ASO's have seperate rulebooks that the NHRA has accepted for use at all NHRA tracks for that ASO's events - the NHRA rulebook does not apply. Unless that ASO makes a rulebook change matching those requirements and then submits that to the NHRA and gets approval for that new change the NHRA rulebook change won't apply. A perfect example of this is the crankshaft height problem that they had in the PNW last year. It wasn't a problem for DHRA members at DHRA tracks because they were running under DHRA rules (an ASO). The NHRA then changed their rule regarding crankshaft heights to match the one that the DHRA was already using.
TRAMPLINEMAN
TDR MEMBER
Turbo Thom said:
Could someone please explain this to me?!
Sorry David, 10. 30. But then you want more research on what will happen if a truck rolls? Up till this point, there has been non done on anything relating to a 5500 lb truck, at all. This point has been reached with little notice from anybody, except us diesel freaks. And as far as forbidding Darren from running a 9 sec pass, why? You know well, I have some issues with his truck, but somebody has got to set a standard to go by, and as of now, Darren is the measureing stick.
When Darrel Russel died, we never heard what killed him. But changes were made to the cage and if you look at what those were, you will find the answer. My point is ,somebody has to have the balls to step out away from the rest, and take that chance. I don't care to see Darren hurt either, but that choice should be his and not to be control by somebody, just because he does not know what will happen in a given situation. I ain't his daddy, as is no one else. The powers that be, do have the right to make rules to run by, cage, blanket, flex plate, rear axles, and such, but the speed he runs should be up to the indivual in the truck. It's his choice
I just don't understand the control over an individual choices. To much lijke big brother. That's little thing there is why NASCAR is on its way down. It won't survive when it gets to the point it even controls who goes to a race.
Bridges were not built nor did people learn to fly without somebody getting hurt. I don't think this will be any different. That's drag racing.
. . Preston. .
When Darrel Russel died, we never heard what killed him. But changes were made to the cage and if you look at what those were, you will find the answer. My point is ,somebody has to have the balls to step out away from the rest, and take that chance. I don't care to see Darren hurt either, but that choice should be his and not to be control by somebody, just because he does not know what will happen in a given situation. I ain't his daddy, as is no one else. The powers that be, do have the right to make rules to run by, cage, blanket, flex plate, rear axles, and such, but the speed he runs should be up to the indivual in the truck. It's his choice
I just don't understand the control over an individual choices. To much lijke big brother. That's little thing there is why NASCAR is on its way down. It won't survive when it gets to the point it even controls who goes to a race.
Bridges were not built nor did people learn to fly without somebody getting hurt. I don't think this will be any different. That's drag racing.
. . Preston. .
DHRA is just piggy backing on NHRA’s rules ,track system, licensing system and insurance carrier.
The ASO are bound by the track they run on , not their rules . this is the way ASO has been explained to me by Eric Lowe . so if it is a NHRA track it is NHRA rules , hence the action that happen at Houston last year with Jeff’s truck. I can now see that this was maybe a attempt to lower the 4x4 top et down to 9. 99 from 12. 00 . this is a step in the right direction ,but as David said , I don’t believe if is safe now much less at a faster speed. There is to much drive line in motion and the center of gravity is against them if any thing goes wrong as in a blown tire of broken axel.
The ASO are bound by the track they run on , not their rules . this is the way ASO has been explained to me by Eric Lowe . so if it is a NHRA track it is NHRA rules , hence the action that happen at Houston last year with Jeff’s truck. I can now see that this was maybe a attempt to lower the 4x4 top et down to 9. 99 from 12. 00 . this is a step in the right direction ,but as David said , I don’t believe if is safe now much less at a faster speed. There is to much drive line in motion and the center of gravity is against them if any thing goes wrong as in a blown tire of broken axel.
Greg... ... ..... I don't know that DHRA is piggybacking on NHRA, but they do have a good format, so why not work with a proven formula. Everything couldn't be the same because they just run diesels.
And in Houston, Jeff was OK as long as he stayed above 10. 0.
And don't try to tell me any racing is "safe". Drivers die in every style racing each years. It can be made just so safe, and then fate takes over. I saw where a ralley car driver died this past sunday.
I see and agree with your point on the axles and tires. There is a lot of movement. So is the 4x4 just removed from competition? I see that as the only remedy. 2 wheel drive only. If not, all you have is bracket racing.
. . Preston. .
And in Houston, Jeff was OK as long as he stayed above 10. 0.
And don't try to tell me any racing is "safe". Drivers die in every style racing each years. It can be made just so safe, and then fate takes over. I saw where a ralley car driver died this past sunday.
I see and agree with your point on the axles and tires. There is a lot of movement. So is the 4x4 just removed from competition? I see that as the only remedy. 2 wheel drive only. If not, all you have is bracket racing.
. . Preston. .
Last edited:
Steve St.Laurent
Staff Alumni
That isn't at all how I understand it. If ASO's (as DHRA is) rules just piggyback on NHRA's rules then why does the NHRA require the ASO's to submit a complete rulebook for approval? I know that Eric had to go through several iterations of their rulebook in order to get one approved. The NHRA demanded that certain items (safety related) be included before they would approve it - if the NHRA's rules applied as well why would they require those items to be in the DHRA's rules? I don't believe that Houston last year was a DHRA race. I just did a search on it and here is how Eric explained how the rulebooks work on the nwbombers site:
Steve... ... ..... If I remember correctly, that race was a memorial race to HVAC. That was why the Mark brought his old truck down. It was not a DHRA race. Just a race in Houston that NHRA rules were applied because we were on a NHRA affiliated track. You are right.
OK... . I'm just thinking out loud here but.....
Lets say someone has a 2wd truck running 9. 80 and someone else has a 4wd truck running 9. 80. What's the difference? Both weighing in at the same weight... .
The only difference as I see it... . is the Crankshaft centerline height... . and even at that... I've seen some 4wd trucks lowered. I believe one of Mass Diesels trucks is like that. (I may be wrong, I was pretty drunk at IRP when I looked at it)
Point being..... 5500lbs in 4wd or 2wd doesn't matter. It's still 5500lbs of "object" that is out of control. Why limit just the 4wd guys? With these trucks, the front axle is very strong, and anyone running that fast obviously has done some work to it to handle that kind of power.
Again thinking outloud..... Isn't the most ammount of stress on the front or rear driveline during the Holeshot? I've read of guys building 20psi of boost or more during a holeshot. If the driveline doesn't snap out of the hole, I would sure think it could handle the rest of the run.
I think the NHRA, DHRA, or any other sanctioning body needs to look more at roll over support than what kind of driveline they are running.
Does that make sense to anyone else?
Josh
Lets say someone has a 2wd truck running 9. 80 and someone else has a 4wd truck running 9. 80. What's the difference? Both weighing in at the same weight... .
The only difference as I see it... . is the Crankshaft centerline height... . and even at that... I've seen some 4wd trucks lowered. I believe one of Mass Diesels trucks is like that. (I may be wrong, I was pretty drunk at IRP when I looked at it)
Point being..... 5500lbs in 4wd or 2wd doesn't matter. It's still 5500lbs of "object" that is out of control. Why limit just the 4wd guys? With these trucks, the front axle is very strong, and anyone running that fast obviously has done some work to it to handle that kind of power.
Again thinking outloud..... Isn't the most ammount of stress on the front or rear driveline during the Holeshot? I've read of guys building 20psi of boost or more during a holeshot. If the driveline doesn't snap out of the hole, I would sure think it could handle the rest of the run.
I think the NHRA, DHRA, or any other sanctioning body needs to look more at roll over support than what kind of driveline they are running.
Does that make sense to anyone else?
Josh
Josh..... That's sort of the point I've been trying to make. Build a cage to hold a rolling 5500 lb truck and let the driver run what he can. It's his tail and he should know the results such action.
Most trucks leave the line around 20-30 lbs of boost. At half track you're out of 4X4 and the front is "floating," so where is the stress.
I'm not fussing, just trying to figure it out.
. . Preston. .
Most trucks leave the line around 20-30 lbs of boost. At half track you're out of 4X4 and the front is "floating," so where is the stress.
I'm not fussing, just trying to figure it out.
. . Preston. .
Massdiesel doesn't have any lowered 4x4 trucks, you may have been thinking of my truck which is 2 wheel drive. Darren's truck, although 4x4 is no higher than any 2 wheel drive truck out there, and his weighs 5600 which is pretty darn close to what the 2 wheel drive trucks are weighing also, so there shouldn't be an reason why just cause he is 4x4 that he can't run as fast as any 2 wheel truck, as long as both trucks meet all the safety requirements.
I will ask again, is there a cutoff for all wheel drive cars? Just curious if this is not so much about safety as it is competition, and maybe they are trying to let everybody get to a point certain point, then trying to level the playing field some? Not that I feel this is a valid reason either, but there must be some reason why we don't see all wheel drive cars running faster than they do.
I will ask again, is there a cutoff for all wheel drive cars? Just curious if this is not so much about safety as it is competition, and maybe they are trying to let everybody get to a point certain point, then trying to level the playing field some? Not that I feel this is a valid reason either, but there must be some reason why we don't see all wheel drive cars running faster than they do.
Remember it's not just about a potential roll over, there's normally a guy in the other lane that could suffer.
Although I do agree that as long as a truck passes all the NHRA rules I don't see why they shouldn't be aloud to race. Does the truck in question pass all the rules?
Although I do agree that as long as a truck passes all the NHRA rules I don't see why they shouldn't be aloud to race. Does the truck in question pass all the rules?
Is there another class of race cars that are as heavy as diesel trucks?
What is "enough cage" for 5500lbs? 6500lbs?
What is the difference between a 2000lb and 5000lb object in motion or it's level of inertia? Are current walls and fencing enough to protect the fans from this object?
How is the raised center of gravity effecting a 9 second 135 + mph race car's handling/safety. How much higher risk (read "more likely is it") to rollover on the track?
What happens if a 4wd truck hangs a rack, veers left or right on the track? Can it climb the wall?
Can it climb the wall then run through the fence?
Just how hard would it be to stop a run-away 4wd in gear with panic'ed driver at WOT?
Would the sand traps stop it or would the 4wd just motor on through it?
My guess is these questions cannot be answered as experience from having happened. We can only speculate what might happen. While the racer may be willing to take the risk, the spectator may not, the tracks may not, and most importantly, the insurance companies may not.
I don't have the knowledge to determine what is required to make a safe cage for a 6500lb truck. I'd like someone to figure it out. What I do know is that Darren's truck and any like it at this level are fast. Not fast for a diesel truck, not fast for a diesel anything, but fast period. They are doing it at a higher weight and center of gravity than any other race car I know of past or present.
I guess what I am saying is that not only is this an issue with 4wd's but our heavy diesel trucks in general. Darren's truck will accelerate in 6 seconds to 100+ mph. Alot can happen in 6 seconds with a mini tank with 4 slicks in 4wd on asphalt. :-laf I'd like to see some safety addressed before we venture into the next level.
What is "enough cage" for 5500lbs? 6500lbs?
What is the difference between a 2000lb and 5000lb object in motion or it's level of inertia? Are current walls and fencing enough to protect the fans from this object?
How is the raised center of gravity effecting a 9 second 135 + mph race car's handling/safety. How much higher risk (read "more likely is it") to rollover on the track?
What happens if a 4wd truck hangs a rack, veers left or right on the track? Can it climb the wall?
Can it climb the wall then run through the fence?
Just how hard would it be to stop a run-away 4wd in gear with panic'ed driver at WOT?
Would the sand traps stop it or would the 4wd just motor on through it?
My guess is these questions cannot be answered as experience from having happened. We can only speculate what might happen. While the racer may be willing to take the risk, the spectator may not, the tracks may not, and most importantly, the insurance companies may not.
I don't have the knowledge to determine what is required to make a safe cage for a 6500lb truck. I'd like someone to figure it out. What I do know is that Darren's truck and any like it at this level are fast. Not fast for a diesel truck, not fast for a diesel anything, but fast period. They are doing it at a higher weight and center of gravity than any other race car I know of past or present.
I guess what I am saying is that not only is this an issue with 4wd's but our heavy diesel trucks in general. Darren's truck will accelerate in 6 seconds to 100+ mph. Alot can happen in 6 seconds with a mini tank with 4 slicks in 4wd on asphalt. :-laf I'd like to see some safety addressed before we venture into the next level.
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