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Competition Nhra Super Stock Class For Diesel

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Off Roading greaseless u-joints - yae or nae?

Competition This turbo any good for a twins setup?

COMP461 said:
A nation event is $275 to enter this includes insurances, with a NHRA license you have a large amount of insurance if something bad happens. A divisional event is usual $ 175.



So is this what your expecting us to pay to race in these same events?
 
that is what NHRA charges , but this will not be a half day race with a few people showing up , but a 4 day race . its an adventure unto it self , I would invite any one that wants to go with me to the next race to come watch





http://63.167.205.46/2002/02dallas/others/image24.html



here is me and out inline 6 getting best enginering at dallas. im second from left
 
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It has occured to me that many are comparing DHRA with this NHRA class that Greg is trying to form. I think first, you need to realize the NHRA class is not really for street trucks. To meet the requirements for this class, it will require a race truck. The DHRA has provided an outlet for Street trucks to race together and have a good time. They are expanding their racing to include the tube chassis rides too, but as it stands right now DHRA is street truck focused racing. There are not many tubbed street trucks running DHRA.



What Greg is looking to do is bring in a class to NHRA that will make diesels competative in the NHRA Super Stock, and attract more diesel builders and racers. These guys will probably not care one bit about sled pulls, dyno shootouts, and truck shows. They will care about racing. In other words I feel Greg is trying to attract the NON TDR/internet drag racers. He is trying to do this by the best method. Make that racer not want to face a diesel each weekend, have him watch it put him on his trailer a few times and he will want to know more about what you are doing. That interest might create more willing to build their own.



This issue with sponsors goes both ways. Sure there are some that will not qualify for diesels but most still will. And there will be the opportunity for the diesel companies to get into the action. You may find a good balance between lost and gained. You may also find that if enough positive attention is given to the diesel rides more want to BE apart of it. But what Greg is looking to do is start a class with purpose built race trucks. This is cool. But regardless to meet weight requirements of 4500 lbs, a single turbo or 5000 and twins will not be a fully dressed truck driven to the track with the air on. This will be a stock appearing gutted and tubbed race truck. Sure I'm sure you could tag it, but I doubt many will.



Bottom line, there are very few diesel racers compared to gassers. If we cannot find a way as a GROUP to challenge those racers, I feel we will fail. We need racers in all areas of the country. Rules need to be established, classes developed, races set and then left alone for people to build on.



Just my opinion of course... :-laf
 
So here is where we are at with the rules





This class will be a minimum of 4500 lbs with driver at the end of the run.

Any light duty automotive diesel engine is acceptable any internal modification is allowed.



TURBOCHARGER One ,Single turbocharger allowed variable turbos prohibited.

twin turbo chargers allowed with a 500 lbs weight addition .

One Intercoolers allowed , air to water intercoolers allowed . water injection allowed with air to air intercooler only. Example air to water intercooler or water injection , but not both. Tap Water only nothing in mixture .



TRANSMISSION any OEM allowed Tran brake allowed .







SS/Diesel/A ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . 4500 lbs with single turbo

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... 5000 lbs with twin turbos



SS/Diesel/B... ... ... ... ... ... ..... 5500lbs with single turbo

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... 6000lbs with twin turbos



SS/Diesel/C... ... ... ... ... ... ..... 4500lbs single turbo with inlet

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . size restriction TBA
 
COMP461 said:
Any light duty automotive diesel engine is acceptable any internal modification is allowed.



TURBOCHARGER One ,Single turbocharger allowed variable turbos prohibited.



What about engines that are rated as 'Medium - Heavy Duty'?

What do you have against VNT/VGT turbos?



Matt
 
opps , well we have to change that , strike that rule





Look guys. I have only been involved with diesels for a short time; I really don't know what we need to make it fair and equable. What I do know is high end Drag racing, and working every last bit out of a limited set of rules challenge. In the long run this will become the premiere diesel deal, not trucks like mine, Fletches or Edge. Those will become the pro mod of diesel, but the real tuners challenge will be a ford vs. Chevy vs. dodge.



What I see in a few years is a class, where every major diesel aftermarket manufactory will have an entry in this. In super stock now you have a Hemi SS/A challenge run with in the U. S. NATIONAL this is basically a class run off, with a big purse , about 30 entries show up, it’s a heads up SS/A race with in the big event. This could be a reality, you could have a SS/Diesel A SMOKE OUT at the VEGA national event get one of the major manufactures, or Aftermarket Company’s to offer a big prize, and bonus for setting a new record. The HEMI challenge is $50,000. We need big time exposure to progress, this is the only way the OEM guys will spend money
 
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Prohibiting VNT/VGT turbos was a bad idea. We need to promote clean burning diesels... using a VNT/VGT works wonders for cleaning up the soot.



The deciding factor should be single VS. multiple turbos.



You didn't answer my other question:

What about engines that are rated as 'Medium - Heavy Duty'?



Every Cummins 6BT/ISB/ISBe installed from '89-present is classified as a "Medium - Heavy Duty" engine. Your rules would prohibit running them if you want to read into it.



What's going to stop someone from slapping a John Deere 6359 engine into a pickup truck? It's darn near the same thing as a Cummins 6BT...



What do we have against people running say a Caterpillar C7 in a pickup truck?



No flames intended - we all have a lot of learning to do.



Greg: I commend you for admitting that you're new to diesels. That took a lot of guts... it did take you a while, though. :-laf



Matt
 
My buddy Brian block explained to me that a Cummins is a light duty , , but if we have to go the extra mile , its any motor that came in a one ton truck and down.



Even thou. I may be new to diesel, its no different then any other new motor project I’ve worked on, you take it from nothing to 95% on maximum in about 18 months . I truly believe that some of the new innovations I have been working on , are something that the traditional diesel guys have not been exposed to. Resonance Tuned intakes runners . with several. I have been working on the quest to rev this motor up and let it make power with out unit loading it self to death from excessive cylinder pressure.



The variable turbo should be allowed in if that is what the general consensus is . The main aim for this primer class is going to be tuning ability , and not twins . big power can be had with twins , so much so , that if becomes a class of carnage and chassis tuning ability , then a show case for engine building ability. , but ever one should have their say , and we all should finish these rules in about a week
 
Brian Block is KTA Cummins on the Diesel -Central site. He races DHRA, and techs for the pulling division.



So hes responsible for building your engine?



Hes a touch mixed up on the light duty-medium duty thing, but since its in a light duty truck, it should be allright.
 
Bottom line, there are very few diesel racers compared to gassers. If we cannot find a way as a GROUP to challenge those racers, I feel we will fail. We need racers in all areas of the country. Rules need to be established, classes developed, races set and then left alone for people to build on.



Well I am going to need my anti-flame suit after this one but since opinions are needed and wanted here we go... (As I have now donned my complete firesuit)...



David...

Yes,there are very few diesel racers compared to the gasser group and if you would take the time to survey the superstock contigent you would find they do not want diesels allowed in their classes. Some need to look over what is really involved with this class and see why they do not desire them into the class. To run a diesel in SS it and make the minimum weight as Comp has shown above means the truck would have to end up being a tube chassis and if you'd ask most of the superstock driver they will tell you they belong in competition eliminator or one of the super classes(S/C-S/G-S/ST). I do not feel there is near enough interest for you to get them into superstock.



Matt. .

To allow the use of non-stock turbos goes against what NHRA Superstock Class racing is about. IF they would allow them into the class the correct way it would mean a HX35 only and allow for no modifications to it. In superstock, you may do modifications to fuel delivery but no modifications to air delivery. By that I mean,IF this was to be a true SS Truck class you would be required to run the factory used turbo with the only modifications to it being on the exhaust size. Also,they would limit the Intake and exhaust port CC's to what came from the factory. Factory style rods would have to be used(or a aftermarket equal weighing the same) and the pistons would have to be a factory piston or a NHRA accepted aftermarket piston of the same weight. Variable geometry turbosare not availabe on them they will not be allowed. Now with that all said,let me make it clear that IF these additions were aloowed then you would have a SS/Modified truck and there again the need to be in Comp Eliminator.



Comp. .

Again you take to the rah rah mode and let them all know what the Indy "Hemi Shootout" pays. You need to be honest with them and offer to them also that there are NO OTHER high paying Superstock shootouts. There are alot of big manufacturers from other car companies that are involved with superstock racing yet NO ONE has a shootout for them. You do not need bigtime exposure for OEM guys to buy parts,they are already doing that long before you started this deal. BTW,your comments on the dropping of grading points is not correct as they are still used to determine when a owner/racer can apply to run a national event. Indy is not a "Class" race but has a class race. Thats how they determine who runs the actual eliminator in both stock and superstock. In otherwards,you dont win class you may not race at Indy. Class racers are automatically in and the rest is filled with the top non-class winner qualifiers. Again,if your not already entered for the 2005 Version of the US Nationals you may not get in.



Again,diesels do not belong in Superstock nor do any Comp or Modified eliminator style vehicle. You will have a very hard road to hoe to accomplish this and I can tell you the opposition is great already... ... ..... Andy
 
Hammer said:
David...

Yes,there are very few diesel racers compared to the gasser group and if you would take the time to survey the superstock contigent you would find they do not want diesels allowed in their classes. Some need to look over what is really involved with this class and see why they do not desire them into the class. To run a diesel in SS it and make the minimum weight as Comp has shown above means the truck would have to end up being a tube chassis and if you'd ask most of the superstock driver they will tell you they belong in competition eliminator or one of the super classes(S/C-S/G-S/ST). I do not feel there is near enough interest for you to get them into superstock. Andy



First , super stock guys are a very opened arm group of guys and I have driven in super stock, in SS/DM I have talked to many of my fellow racers and they are all for it. Second if you cant get a diesel truck in at around 4500 with a drivers , you must not have the ingenuity it takes to run in comp , muck less super stock. It would be very easy to take and make a super stock legal truck an get below 4500 just look at your average SS/TA which will weigh in at around 3000 to 3300 depending on motor , a Cummins only weights about 500 lbs more then these gas motors . you are still hung up on the who is a modified and who is a comp car deal, that has been going on for more then 20 years , the rules are in place , live with them



Hammer said:
Matt. .

To allow the use of non-stock turbos goes against what NHRA Superstock Class racing is about. IF they would allow them into the class the correct way it would mean a HX35 only and allow for no modifications to it. In superstock, you may do modifications to fuel delivery but no modifications to air delivery. By that I mean,IF this was to be a true SS Truck class you would be required to run the factory used turbo with the only modifications to it being on the exhaust size. Also,they would limit the Intake and exhaust port CC's to what came from the factory. Factory style rods would have to be used(or a aftermarket equal weighing the same) and the pistons would have to be a factory piston or a NHRA accepted aftermarket piston of the same weight. Variable geometry turbosare not availabe on them they will not be allowed. Now with that all said,let me make it clear that IF these additions were aloowed then you would have a SS/Modified truck and there again the need to be in Comp Eliminator. Andy



First in SS modified truck there is no rules for internal engine modifications , any thing gos , the motor in the SS/DM I drove is a older comp motor , with no holds bared , the rules will be what we make of them , and what we decide. There are a lot of SS/modified guys that you would toss out if you had your way , the reason these classes exist is some of the guys can run the stuff, now that comp has become a professional sportsman class, where it takes several hundred thousand to just anti up .









Hammer said:
Comp. .

Again you take to the rah rah mode and let them all know what the Indy "Hemi Shootout" pays. You need to be honest with them and offer to them also that there are NO OTHER high paying Superstock shootouts. There are alot of big manufacturers from other car companies that are involved with superstock racing yet NO ONE has a shootout for them. You do not need bigtime exposure for OEM guys to buy parts,they are already doing that long before you started this deal. BTW,your comments on the dropping of grading points is not correct as they are still used to determine when a owner/racer can apply to run a national event. Indy is not a "Class" race but has a class race. Thats how they determine who runs the actual eliminator in both stock and superstock. In otherwards,you dont win class you may not race at Indy. Class racers are automatically in and the rest is filled with the top non-class winner qualifiers. Again,if your not already entered for the 2005 Version of the US Nationals you may not get in.



Again,diesels do not belong in Superstock nor do any Comp or Modified eliminator style vehicle. You will have a very hard road to hoe to accomplish this and I can tell you the opposition is great already... ... ..... Andy



__________________

Indianapolis July 6 July 13 July 20 July 27 August 3 August 10 August 19 August 31-Sept. 5





These are the dates you can start to enter the U. S. NATIONALS , no one can even start to enter until July 6 , and yes you need grade points to get in , but if the quota are not filled when it gets down to august 10th you can get in with 1 grade point. You are still fighting to take the modified out of SS , well the it ant going to happen, if it was going to , it would have in the last 20 year. The diesel shoot out I was referring to is just any ideal, you are the only one on here that doesn’t get it. we have been having conference calls will many people on here for the last few months and this train is coming down the track, eather help , shut up are get out of the way.
 
Hey Greg, keep it up; there are a lot of drag racers that support this effort. We’re still in the brainstorming phase (this is where your suppose to be) Like any BPI’s or SOP assemblies, they’re quite arduous to compile into a draft. I’m thinking that if we can broaden the SS/B class it would gain more interest, what do you think????????
 
This class will be above minimum with driver at the end of the run.

Any light duty automotive diesel engine originally installed in a one ton truck and down is acceptable any internal modification is allowed.



TURBOCHARGER One ,Single turbocharger allowed variable turbos permitted

twin turbo chargers allowed with a 500 lbs weight addition .

One Intercoolers allowed , air to water intercoolers allowed . water injection allowed with air to air intercooler only. Example air to water intercooler or water injection , but not both. Water injection or air to water intercooler is only allowed on single turbo



TRANSMISSION any OEM allowed Tran brake allowed .



Exhaust must be pointed up and back , so as to not obscure the lights or other lane







SS/Diesel/A ... ... ... ... ... ... ... . 4500 lbs with single turbo

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... turbo inlet size 2. 50 or less



SS/Diesel/B... ... ... ... ... ... ..... 5500lbs with single turbo

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... …. . 6000lbs with twin turbos

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... turbo inlet size single2. 50 or less

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... turbo inlet size twin 3. 10 or less
 
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Hammer,

get it through your thick skull we are going to make this happen weather you like it or not. so as Greg put it best. "join us or get the H**L out of the way. " I may be a young racer but i understand what it takes to run SS. even if i can run the fastest i just need to tune better then the next guy to win, oh and be consistant. right Greg.



The Fat Kid

Andy
 
NHRA's Sportsman grading system: How it works



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

01/21/2005





To meet demands on pit space and scheduling at national events, NHRA developed its grading system to accommodate the growing number of Sportsman competitors who wish to participate. Online event registration in 2005 has been modified to accept entries eight weeks prior to each event for racers with a Grade 6 or greater. Grade 5 racers can register one week later, Grade 4 racers a week after that, and so on until the category is filled. The process for earning grade points follows:



Drivers receive one grade point per Lucas Oil divisional event or National Open attended (grade points are also awarded for the Top Comp category in Division 6, Super E in Division 7, and Top Sportsman in Divisions 2, 3, and 4). The grade points earned in the previous year or the current year, whichever is greater at the time of event registration, will be the driver's accepted grade.



A racer who competes in multiple categories can combine grade points. For example, a racer who competes in Super Gas at two events and in Super Comp at two events will have a combined grade point of 4 and may register as a Grade 4 contestant in any single NHRA Sportsman category.



Grade points earned in any grading class can be used for national event entry in one of NHRA's seven Sportsman categories, excluding Super Street; to compete in Super Street at a national event, grade points must have been earned in Super Street. A racer who has earned grade points in Stock, for example, can use those to apply for entry in any of the other six categories as long as NHRA competition license requirements have been met. It is the contestant's responsibility to make sure that grade points for all events attended are awarded.



A racer who has specific questions about NHRA's Sportsman grading system are encouraged to speak with his or her division director.



Provisional entries

NHRA's Sportsman grading system allows for the following provisional entries:



NHRA Gold, Silver, and Bronze Card holders. These contestants are guaranteed national event entry for the specified racing season. Gold Card holders are national and divisional champions on the Lucas Oil and Jr. Drag Racing League levels and divisional champions in the Summit Racing Series. (A racer who wins championships in different categories may earn more than one Gold Card, but one who wins national and divisional titles in the same category does not receive two Gold Cards. ) Silver Card holders are the numbers 2 through 10 finishers nationally who did not earn a Gold Card in the same category and the numbers 2 through 5 finishers divisionally in Top Alcohol Dragster and Top Alcohol Funny Car who did not earn a Gold Card. A Bronze Card is awarded to the numbers 6 through 10 finishers divisionally in Top Alcohol Dragster and Top Alcohol Funny Car who did not earn a Gold or Silver Card. The Silver and Bronze Card is for entry to national events only.



Defending event champions: The defending event champion will be guaranteed entry to the event that he or she won. For example, the Super Comp winner at the 2004 Mopar Mile-High NHRA Nationals is ensured entry into Super Comp at the 2005 Mile-Highs. Entry is not guaranteed in any other event or category.



Former national season champions: Former Professional or Sportsman national champs will be confirmed entry to any national event in any category. In addition, a Pro driver who earns a top 20 finish in the current or previous season will be given Sportsman entry to any national event.



Car owners: Owner grade credit may be awarded in cases of driver change. The owner must have grade points from the previous year for the vehicle being entered (points can be based on multiple drivers for said vehicle). Ownership will be verified using national event entry forms and divisional and National Open tech-card payee information. The owner grade points cannot be a combination of multiple vehicles and will be calculated from the previous year only. Owner and driver grade points cannot be combined, and multiple owners of same-vehicle grade points will not be combined. Owner grade points cannot be used on a second car; a driver must have sufficient grade points for a second car to compete.



Top 10 title contenders: As the racing season nears its end, a contestant within the top 20 in any Sportsman category that rewards a national championship and remains in contention for a possible top 10 year-end position is guaranteed entry to NHRA's final four nationals events: in Dallas, Chicago, Las Vegas, and Pomona.



Driver changes will not be permitted for any provisional entry that registered after the event was closed either by reaching class quota or entry cutoff date.



These provisional policies do not excuse the contestant from any late fees or insurance surcharges. For example, if a Gold Card holder gains entry at the gate for an event, the $100 late/gate fee and $40 insurance fee will apply.



Hardship entries

To accommodate certain hardship cases, as determined by NHRA, or a racer who returns to active competition, an average grade is calculated by combining the racer's grade points from the three previous years and dividing that number by three (total number of years). For example, a racer who competed in one divisional event in 2004, five in 2003, and six in 2002 has a total of 12 points, which, when divided by 3, equals a grade point of 4A ("A" for the averaging calculation).



Foreign contestants

Grade points will be issued for participation in select foreign events: FIA European Championship, Australian Drag Racing Championship, Nordic Drag Racing Series, and Japan Drag Racing Association Championship. Each entry application must include written confirmation of participation in the series from the host country's sanctioning organization.
 
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