Competition Nhra Super Stock Class For Diesel

[COMP461]

After another conversation with several people , we have decided that the size of the turbo needs to be around 2. 88. this will control smoke, and also make the combination more reliable . John Russin , made me understand , that putting the inducer size that small, would do several things . One: people would spend big bucks and make turbos that would work with the size restrictions , but be on the raggied edge , and possible scatter turbos . Second the turbo would limit boost , and not clean up, producing smoke. We have decided that the push to keep these trucks out of the 9 second range is only going to work for a short time , so why not plain ahead and let them run there sooner. The difference is several safety issues.

1 you will have to get a NHRA competition license, this is not that difficult to get.

2 SFI flex plate, SFI balancer, 8 point instead of 6 point cage , and a chassis tag





NHRA has given us more guidance on this , in that they want the smoke stacks up and directed back , at a upwards angle.





Another conversation was weight , it is a fact that a well engineered SS/TA which is a truck under the rules we will be building the chassis to, with a Hemi 426 will easily get to the minimum weight of 3250 , so to make it safer faster and easer on parts several people would like the minimum weight at the level of what a state of the art truck would be , with the figure that a Cummins is at least 500 lbs heaver then a hemi , and the trans are at least 100 lbs heaver we would like your ideals about weight in the 4000 lbs range ,

 

[Fletcher]

After another conversation with several people , we have decided that the size of the turbo needs to be around 2. 88. this will control smoke, and also make the combination more reliable . John Russin , made me understand , that putting the inducer size that small, would do several things . One: people would spend big bucks and make turbos that would work with the size restrictions , but be on the raggied edge , and possible scatter turbos . Second the turbo would limit boost , and not clean up, producing smoke. We have decided that the push to keep these trucks out of the 9 second range is only going to work for a short time , so why not plain ahead and let them run there sooner. The difference is several safety issues.

1 you will have to get a NHRA competition license, this is not that difficult to get.

2 SFI flex plate, SFI balancer, 8 point instead of 6 point cage , and a chassis tag





NHRA has given us more guidance on this , in that they want the smoke stacks up and directed back , at a upwards angle.





Another conversation was weight , it is a fact that a well engineered SS/TA which is a truck under the rules we will be building the chassis to, with a Hemi 426 will easily get to the minimum weight of 3250 , so to make it safer faster and easer on parts several people would like the minimum weight at the level of what a state of the art truck would be , with the figure that a Cummins is at least 500 lbs heaver then a hemi , and the trans are at least 100 lbs heaver we would like your ideals about weight in the 4000 lbs range ,

Right on Greg ! Keep it up... ..... we have a case of energy bars being shipped

 

[COMP461]

This class will be above minimum with driver at the end of the run.

Any light duty automotive diesel engine originally installed in a one ton truck and down is acceptable any internal modification is allowed.



TURBOCHARGER One ,Single turbocharger allowed variable turbos permitted

twin turbo chargers allowed with a 500 lbs weight addition .

One Intercoolers allowed , air to water intercoolers allowed . water injection allowed with air to air intercooler only. Example air to water intercooler or water injection , but not both. Water injection or air to water intercooler is only allowed on single turbo



TRANSMISSION any OEM allowed Tran brake allowed .



Exhaust must be pointed up and back , so as to not obscure the lights or other lane







SS/Tdiesel/A... ... ... ... ... ... ... . 4000lbs with single turbo

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... turbo inlet size 2. 88or less



SS/TDiesel/B... ... ... ... ... ... ..... 5500lbs with single turbo

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... …. . 6000lbs with twin turbos

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... turbo inlet size single2. 88 or less

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..... turbo inlet size twin 3. 10 or less

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Anything we can do to reduce soot will be a good thing. Making rules that allow the use of technologies to reduce soot should be considered a very important priority.



Sure, some crowds totally dig the fact that we can obscure daylight. But, going forward we really need to emphasize and encourage clean burning diesels - it's the only way we can keep racing without being totally scorned by environmentalists. They'll always have something to complain about... so we may as well avoid confrontation by being proactive.



We're already much more quiet than the gassers, so reducing visible exhaust emissions is yet another feather in our hat to appease the public.



Anyone who knows anything about diesels realizes the benefits of a compression ignition engine... we need to spread FACTUAL information around and dispel the typical soot belching diesel stereotypes.



Matt

 

[COMP461]

we are getting close , the rule proposal is drafted , and with the exceptions of minor changes we are there. any one wishing to have a work doc. to print and send to NHRA please PM me , and i will send you the finnished doc. and the address to send it to. thanks for the help Greg Hogue

 

[COMP461]

. we have to make a decision on water injection, Snow Performance is very interested in becoming a contingency sponsor, and possibly sponsoring a truck, for this . just as we didn't allow aftermarket transmission ,IE Bruno, or lenco drive ,this done to allow current transmission company’s of the diesel world an opportunity to participate , we need to conceder others, avenues . NHRA is not totally firm against , , but not really wanting it , because of the need to police what’s in the water tank. Any ideals , they also say that if allow, its any thing goes in the tank. One note , NHRA general rules prohibit nitromethane , and propylene oxide, and the penalties for using this in any form in NHRA sportsman racing is very severe. So we are basically talking about water methanol.



Shed puller . step up , be a leader , you have the tech experience to give this a little guidance.

 

[JoshPeters]

Greg... .



How about another one to keep the competition in the driver. NO throttle stops or electronic timing devices. Keep the Driver Skill involved!



Josh

 

[COMP461]

super stock rules do not allow either. josh you do understand that in the class we propose , we will be racing under superstock rules , against other gas cars. the fields will be around 40 to 150 cars at every race

 

[JoshPeters]

That I was unaware of. I did not read anyplace where that was the case. I was under the impression that this was a Diesel specific class.



Interesting... ... I like the idea! Run with it boys! I'm just offering ideas, and suggestions.



I would push for the water injection. Maybe a specific mix of water that you can only get at the track, when something foregn is added it changes color. That way you know it's only water, or Water/methonal.



Josh

 

[TurboTweaker]

hey josh kinda like when some kid pee's in the pool it turns red? i think it might just work.



TFK

Andy

 

[JoshPeters]

hey josh kinda like when some kid pee's in the pool it turns red? i think it might just work.



TFK

Andy

The Fat Kid must have done that! But yes... that's the idea!



Josh

 

[COMP461]

In super stock we will have our own class , , but we are still in the super stock eliminator.

Super stock is like a bracket race with around 100 classes , each with their own rules. And index to run under. You must qualify by running as far under as you can , , if a 100 cars or trucks show up to race , and it’s a 64 car field , then the fastest 64 cars under their respective index’s, will race. When you race a vehicle from another class you are handicapped ,off your dial under your index. , it’s a full tree , no delay boxes. The exception to this ,and the reason to try and have a fast truck under you index is two fold. If you meet another vehicle of you same class , it’s a heads up race , first one to the finish line wins. Also at some National events , about a third of them , you run class , meaning you race first every car or truck in your class , to determine class champion. You win a nice check, and a WALLY or NHRA trophy. Then you get to race the big race later on , if you lose class , you are still seeded in to the field in respect to you qualifying . the cool thing about class , is if you show up for the class race , and you are the only one there in you class , you will!!!!!

 

[TurboTweaker]

hmmmmm... ... . no one shows, or few show and you place nicely. i like it Oo. so if we race other trucks not in or class but still ss/eliminator they take our diffrence off the index and make that the diffrence on the tree? and a full tree means one lite at a time not the pro 3 yellows at once and a green? Keep up the good work greg.



The Fat Kid

Andy

 

[TurboTweaker]

Just thought you guys would like to see this. I built this last year in tech school for a desing contest for a scholarship. i thought it was pretty cool when i got done ans steped back to look at it. its funny how you can get so wraped up in things and not see the big picture, kinda like this ss/diesel class. keep up the good owrk guys.



The Fat Kid

Andy

 

[COMP461]

Looks Great , If You Can Do That , You Are A Definite Player ,To Do A Truck In SS

 

[COMP461]

New ideal, talked to the engineers at Banks, and their ideal was not to limit the inlet size of the turbo, but to put what they call a donut in the atmospheric side of the inlet. You could run any charger you want, but you would have a restrictor. The advantage is, if NHRA decides that an error has been made on the size it can be changed up or down, with out the racers having to change their expensive set up.

 

[Jetpilot]

Greg,



I like the idea of using the restictors!!

 

[TurboTweaker]

not a bad idea, makes life easier like you said if they want us to go up or down in size. i'd build a truck greg but im just a lil fat welder, cant afford it right now maybe in the next 5 years i can pice on together.



The Fat Kid

Andy

 

[Hammer]

Hmmmm. .

You crack me up Comp.

Why would you even lead these guys on to believe that NHRA is going to allow any type of fuel additive,such as water meth injection,into a class where no gasser is allowed to run anthing but straight racing gas and are checked regularly for that. IF you ran Comp as you say you did then you know that Stock and Superstock racers have their fuel tested as much of mroe than the Pro Stock guys do. Again,be realistic in your goals and don't lead these guys on with promises you will never get thru.



Ok,realistic is what you want then here you go gang,

Below is a picture of one of the Division 1's SS/TA or a perfect example of a Superstock Modified truck. Its a modified truck because the owner,Pat Storey,runs a Ray Barton built destroked Hemi in it. The only piece of fiberglass allowed is the hood and all other panels are as they came from the factory. This truck is a back halved ride and is not a complete tube chassis ride like what Comp has raced in the super class he has been running. This is how your truck will end up being built to run a "modified" truck class.



Now on to the more important points Comp needs to address here for you prospective racers. To build this truck to run faster than 9. 99 safety will have to be addressed first before the NHRA certification commitee will sticker your truck. With no current rules written for any race vehicles at the proposed weights you will need to establish them first. So where do you begin,no one makes brakes to stop a truck of that weight,nor does NHRA have a tubing spec for a roll cage at that weight. Next big problem would be the chassis and who will make the shocks and springs to race at that weight and if needed what chute would you use as none are designed for the weights proposed. This just touches some of the inherent problems for prospective racers for this class will come across just to build a truck. Most of these problems relate to special order parts as no current manufacturer makes them to fit this class. This will relate to a much higher cost just to build your rolling chassis compared to a regular SS/TM.



One thing I believe I see happening here is owners not understanding what a Superstock Truck is or looks like. These are not your regular drivers nor are they ex-prostock trucks or super class chassis. Superstock Modified means modified motors in a regular doorslammer style ride. I know Comp showed a few here in this thread,but,how many actually looked at the pics carefully. The top one is a SS/GT Truck and the other two are modified truck examples. The spy shot of Fletchers ride is sweet but not a truck that will race in Superstock. The point being made here is for you to look at the differences in the trucks. Superstock has only one tube style chassis class and its SS/?X,the ? meaning the class designation and the X is for Experimental. This is where the tube style cars run and there are not alot of them anymore due to the very high cost to run them. these are basically ex-prostock or comp eliminator cars with comp motors running in superstock.



Someone made a smart remark about getting on board or get run over I think. I have been on board for many years in Superstock and have been trying honestly here to show some of you the other side,a side I feel Comp is not showing. Many records have been set with cars I have been involved with in one way or another. One thing I will honestly tell you from a gassers view is the concerns they have expressed about not wanting to race a vehicle which may not stop due to the excessive weights carried and what may happen if impacted due to a problem if a heavy diesel hits them at speed. I can only wonder what the chances of staging next to a $200 grand SS/AA Hemi car would with a superstock diesel,2,slim and none. At any rate,its guys like me Comp you need to sell for this class and there are alot of them out there and watching this thread continue. You still haven't shown me or any of them how you propose to make this class a safe one for the parties involved... ... ... Andy

 

[COMP461]

Hmmmm. .

You crack me up Comp.

Why would you even lead these guys on to believe that NHRA is going to allow any type of fuel additive,such as water meth injection,into a class where no gasser is allowed to run anthing but straight racing gas and are checked regularly for that. IF you ran Comp as you say you did then you know that Stock and Superstock racers have their fuel tested as much of mroe than the Pro Stock guys do. Again,be realistic in your goals and don't lead these guys on with promises you will never get thru. Andy

Again what is you motivation , if you’re a knowledgeable NHRA racer , then why are you want to try and derail this effort. This isn’t just a pipe dream , but a concerted effort to bring diesel motors sports in to an arena where we can have stable rules , with a sanction body that doesn’t change its mind ever time the wind blows . As Scott Bentz , myself and others have found, the people at NHRA are very accommodating , and wanting us to come to a consensus on a fair and equable rule package , that will be exciting , competitive , and easy for the NHRA tech official to police. You seem to have an hidden agenda , what is possibly motives as to you to discourage this new class , maybe some one else who has a vested interest in it failing maybe !!!!!!!

Ok,realistic is what you want then here you go gang,

Below is a picture of one of the Division 1's SS/TA or a perfect example of a Superstock Modified truck. Its a modified truck because the owner,Pat Storey,runs a Ray Barton built destroked Hemi in it. The only piece of fiberglass allowed is the hood and all other panels are as they came from the factory. This truck is a back halved ride and is not a complete tube chassis ride like what Comp has raced in the super class he has been running. This is how your truck will end up being built to run a "modified" truck class. Andy

That a fine looking truck , this is the direction the people we are talking to in the diesel world are going in , an what is your problem with that , no one in this group really believes that a guy is going to drive his street truck up to the gate and enter SS , it will be a class for the top people and venders to compete in , bringing in several major diesel manufactory in as car owner , and sponsors . I have been contacted by several of the aftermarket manufactory , and encouraged on , these same people are going to draft , and send NHRA letters of support , and have expressed a defiant interest in this venture.

Now on to the more important points Comp needs to address here for you prospective racers. To build this truck to run faster than 9. 99 safety will have to be addressed first before the NHRA certification commitee will sticker your truck. With no current rules written for any race vehicles at the proposed weights you will need to establish them first. So where do you begin,no one makes brakes to stop a truck of that weight,nor does NHRA have a tubing spec for a roll cage at that weight. Next big problem would be the chassis and who will make the shocks and springs to race at that weight and if needed what chute would you use as none are designed for the weights proposed. This just touches some of the inherent problems for prospective racers for this class will come across just to build a truck. Most of these problems relate to special order parts as no current manufacturer makes them to fit this class. This will relate to a much higher cost just to build your rolling chassis compared to a regular SS/TM. Andy

There is no problem with the weight , most of the SS/T/Diesel A will get down around minimum weight of 4000 lbs , this is well with in the limits of the current available parts . the parachute will stop a 2500 lbs funny Car at 330 MPH , I’m sure it will stop a diesel truck at 4000 lbs , the truck you mention here has a minimum weight of 3350 . the decision to open up SS/T/diesel A and reduce the minimum weight was one to let the state of the art guys build a exciting , fast truck , and yes running in the high 9’s second range will require a chassis tag , and NHRA Lic. , but this class will be populated by the top teams in the diesel world. These trucks on the cutting edge will cost a great deal of money to build , but the truck in the picture wasn’t cheep either . A guy with good skills will be able to build one , as many SS teams do , and it might be a little heaver then the minimum , and have a little less trick parts , but here is the fun part of SS, the index for this class should be around 11 seconds , say a guy like the FAT KID , who can fabricate , builds a nice back half truck , It weights in at a portly 4600 lbs . Now Andy , has a few friends that race around a Pro stock or alcohol funny Car , so he gets a good set of used 1490 Goodyear’s , 34. 5 x17x16 . now Andy builds a average motor that makes 600 hp , nothing special . he calls Steffen at DTT , Christen at BD or the people at Pro Lock or some other diesel transmission guys . this truck should run in the mid 10 second range. Not a record , but able to race , and have a reasonable chance to win.

One thing I believe I see happening here is owners not understanding what a Superstock Truck is or looks like. These are not your regular drivers nor are they ex-prostock trucks or super class chassis. Superstock Modified means modified motors in a regular doorslammer style ride. I know Comp showed a few here in this thread,but,how many actually looked at the pics carefully. The top one is a SS/GT Truck and the other two are modified truck examples. The spy shot of Fletchers ride is sweet but not a truck that will race in Superstock. The point being made here is for you to look at the differences in the trucks. Superstock has only one tube style chassis class and its SS/?X,the ? meaning the class designation and the X is for Experimental. This is where the tube style cars run and there are not alot of them anymore due to the very high cost to run them. these are basically ex-prostock or comp eliminator cars with comp motors running in superstock. Andy

Again why are you trying to stop derail this , what is you answer , have no place to race in a environment that would promote sponsored trucks . The current option is to go to a 4 hour race with a maximum of a 1000 people , big name sponsors don’t write big checks for that. The rules for SS/GT and SS/ modified are basically the same for the chassis , the difference is the motor, one is a Cubic inch to weight , , with no reasonable limit to modification , and GT is a Super stock spec motor , subject to tear down. And SS/FX is the place where a truck like mine ,Fletches or Keith’s will run.

Someone made a smart remark about getting on board or get run over I think. I have been on board for many years in Superstock and have been trying honestly here to show some of you the other side,a side I feel Comp is not showing. Many records have been set with cars I have been involved with in one way or another. One thing I will honestly tell you from a gassers view is the concerns they have expressed about not wanting to race a vehicle which may not stop due to the excessive weights carried and what may happen if impacted due to a problem if a heavy diesel hits them at speed. I can only wonder what the chances of staging next to a $200 grand SS/AA Hemi car would with a superstock diesel,2,slim and none. At any rate,its guys like me Comp you need to sell for this class and there are alot of them out there and watching this thread continue. You still haven't shown me or any of them how you propose to make this class a safe one for the parties involved... ... ... Andy

I to have been involved in many record setting program, I still hold a modified record in IHRA D/ED , if they haven’t removed those records , as the class died due to lack of interest. And a SS/AA car is no different from any other , the SS/DM I drove last with a 310 inch comp motor had to weight 3565. 11. 5 lbs per CID if we jumped down to E you had to add 310 lbs for a total of 3875. there are a lot of heavy super stockers out their .





So what is your proposal, roll over and play dead, quit , give up , race in a minor league with no chance for any real deals what is you main problem, if you are so against this , offers some ideals . with or without you we are almost finished writing the rules. .