No 04 Ho?

[JCotte]

:--) I was at a dealership yesterday and was informed that there will no longer be an HO offered after the 03 model year. has anyone else heard this or is the dealership blowing smoke?:{

 

[RankRam]

Total BS... He's trying to sell the 03's and maybe at a premium as well!



That's what I am inclined to think.

 

[Snow man]

There is no HO for us in NY state anymore:{

 

[RankRam]

Sorry to hear that, darn fresh air nazi's!

 

[Prairie Dog]

Maybe they're all going to be H. O. 's so their dropping the designation?

Nah, on second thought I agree with RankRam - it's just dealer B. S.

 

[Snow man]

Its not dealer BS,the HO isnt avaiable in NY state now. The dealer wants to sell you an HO,its emission laws that wont allow it. They are not all HO's now,they are still 250hp.

 

[j.mitchell]

Snow man is right. Dodge still makes the H. O. but it won't pass emmissions here in good old N. Y. I got a 03 leftover instead of ordering a 04 for just this reason. I would imagine that if dodge puts an egr on the 04. 5's that they will again be offered here.

mitch

 

[Tomeygun]

the only diesels that I have been able to order are the HO version for the 2004 model year



no regular outputs have been ordered

 

[RLighthall]

The sales guy told me that the SO is dropped for '04' and that the '04 1/2 will have more horses...

 

[lmills]

I was just out shopping at the local dealer earlier today and couldn't help that notice every truck they had was an HO. I have no problem with that since that is what I am looking for anyway.

 

[DLeno]

Originally posted by RLighthall

The sales guy told me that the SO is dropped for '04' and that the '04 1/2 will have more horses...

right now, sales guys have no freekn clue about 04 HP ratings. They are just flappin their little sales lips to hear themselves talk. Of course, if the sales guy is willing to tell you his sources and allow you to validate, then you can believe him. But by all means don't take a salesman's word for it! One clue to this guy's credibilty is the statement that "the SO is dropped for 04". thats just not true -- call DC and ask them and they will tell you that the 04 engines being built into 04 trucks right now are the same as 03. In my opinion (see below) the SO COULD be dropped in January, however.



The reason I'm so sharply critical of sales creatures is because I've been told some pretty tall tales, even by a sales MANAGER -- one guy told me that the first (August 2003) 2004 trucks would have EGR and/or CAT and/or some sort of exhaust related emissions control and that because of this, guys were lining up to get the last of the 03s. Then I found out that the early 2004s being built right now were using the same engines with the same specs as in 2003. You can tell how much respect I have for that dealership...



I require honest and complete information from a dealer. Its ok to say "I don't know" but to spew out garbage with no factual basis is just intolerable and I have no use for such dealers. That said, of course you should give the benefit of the doubt -- check up on sources for accuracy and then make your judgement.



The '04. 5 might have more horses, I don't know. If it comes with EGR, it will probably have a variable geometry turbo which might be capable of more, who knows. The HP race is definately real, and right now the high-reving short-stroke V8s can eak out a bit more peak HP than the Cummins and play the specsmanship game better on paper. note that I said on paper . So who knows -- Cummins might offer more ponys along with EGR/VGT. But I wouldn't count on those extra marketing ponys to net any advantage over a non-EGR engine with a good fueling box



Anyway, DC is pretty secretive about this stuff and (last I knew) was not revealing any T/HP specs for the post-January engines. But here are some facts to ponder:



1. Currently, (today), dodge cannot sell any HO engines in some states (California, NY, etc. ) because of local emmisions standards which the HO engine cannot meet.



2. These same HO engines can be sold in the other states because the federal emissions regs are not as stringent.



3. Starting in January, 2004, the Federal EPA emissions regs will equal the California and other states' regs. That means no HO engines sales at all, unless they meet the emissions regs with EGR/Cat/something. In my opinion, I bet the new HO/EGR production line at Cummins is ready to pump out new engines that meet the new '4 regs whenever DC wants them.



Also in my opinion, there is good credibility in the suggestion that there will be no SO engine after January. That credibility comes from common sense, though, not from a source of any authority. The only real reason to have a standard output engine is/was (a) the automatic transmission can't take the HO, or (b) a couple of states won't allow the HO. With both of those restrictions removed (new EGR in January, and the new 48RE transmission available now), there certainly isn't any reason to bother with an SO engine anymore.

 

[RMH]

IMILLS

I am looking for an 03 3500 ho. can you shoot me some dealers and phone#'s. thanks

 

[DLeno]

contact Luke @ www.maczuk.net.

 

[lmills]

I just got off the phone with the salesman that we always have dealt with, she told me the same thing entioned above. She says that they won't be able to get anything but HO's in 2004.



I asked her about CA and NY and she wasn't sure about what they are doing to get them through emisions

 

[j.mitchell]

I talked to the dealer that I got my truck from yesterday. She said that they are expecting the trucks to pass emissions in January. Until then they can't order any 04's. Dodge won't say how they are going to pass or what emission controls will be on them. Nothing about horsepower either.



Mitch

 

[DLeno]

Mitch, you must be talking about "HO" engines only. If your dealer says that no CTD of any flavor can be ordered right now, then my BS meter has to peg. according to DC, the "SO" engine is being built now and sold in 2004 model year trucks in ME, MA, VT, CA, and NY.



As others have said, they're not saying ANYTHNING about January 2004, even when you ask them to respond to the obvious situation that no "HO"s will be sold anywhere unless they buck up and get the new EGR platform in there.



There's one other odd but possible twist to the "January 04" gossip and that is the possiblity that "HO" engines won't be available anywhere for some brief time period, say January 1 until they start producing EGR engines. that would be marketing suicide of course, so I've got my bets placed on the "EGR HO" engine on or perhaps before January. In order to provide an un-interrupted flow of "HO" trucks to the market, they have to commit their production line at some point to "EGR HO" trucks. To save $$ they'll try and delay that as much as possible without risking an interruption in availability, so I think they'll cut over to EGR engine prior to January. These trucks will have a substantially different ECM that has to control not only the EGT but the VGT as well. very very different animal.

 

[j.mitchell]

You are correct. I am refering to HO"s only.

Mitch

 

[skcmcc]

DLeno-

"The only real reason to have a standard output engine is/was (a) the automatic transmission can't take the HO, or (b) a couple of states won't allow the HO. With both of those restrictions removed (new EGR in January, and the new 48RE transmission available now), there certainly isn't any reason to bother with an SO engine anymore. "



You're forgetting the very good reason they'd still offer the HO as a option-

A $600 dollar price premium.

I'll make you a friendly wager that there will be a SO and HO version after 1/04, even though you're right, once a EPA compliant HO version is available there's no reason why they all couldn't be higher hp versions.

But since the added gear is going to make the engines more expensive, and the current SO engines still meet the coming standards, I'm guessing they'll still be SO's and HO's after January.



Steve

 

[DLeno]

very good point steve. on the flip side, without EGR on either one (the case today), I can't imagine that the mfg cost is that much different, and the process overhead to deal with 2 engines instead of 1 is significant as well. Personally I think the $600 price difference is marketing driven and not mfg driven. In part due to the transmission requirement -- it isn't just the engine cost. also, I think the axles are different (they don't use the 11. 5" gears) in the 2500 SO trucks, but I could be wrong about that.



But you're comment makes a great deal of sense. with EGR a requriement of the HO, and if they can offer the SO without EGR, it may be price competitive to keep it in the lineup. especially if they can save some additional money with a cheeper transmission, cheeper driveline, and cheeper engine. I agree that with the potential of a non-EGR SO engine, the HO/EGR is bound to increase the price gap between those two offerings.



it will be interesting to see how this all develops. note too that while the CA "SO" engine is non-EGR it is different from the 49 states "SO" engine (fewer ponies and adds a CAT under the truck). Soon, everything will be EGR (the 2004 EPA requirements get even worse over the next few years).



the poor CTD is getting neutered. But not before January 2004!

 

[skcmcc]

DLeno,

We'll see. There's a post right now that says the on-line config for 04 doesn't have a SO. But there still isn't a HO version for tighter emission states like CA, NY and MA (where I live).

I'm looking forward to having the HO available in Mass,

the lack of that convinced me to keep my 98 for awhile. I'll see how the EGR HO does and probably jump into an 05.

(Although if GM offers the quad steering in a crew cab diesel, that would make plowing so much easier... . , but I digress)

In any case I may be wrong, but considering the scrambling for any source of profit, I would think the marketing guys would be pushing for two versions.

And your point of the additional expense of having two versions is well taken, however the SO hardware is surely amortized by now, so the expense is probably considerably less than the premium they could demand for the HO.

Then again if marketing indicates that no one would order an SO, even if it is cheaper, they might drop it after all.

We'll find out in pretty soon I guess.

Steve