No Power on Launch

[WM-300]

WM, I got an ad in the mail today from Dish: $39. 95 a month for 5 years for satellite internet. It's not Roadrunner speed, but it's not rigor mortis dial-up either. 1-888-825-2581

Thanks Mark;



Satellite is out of the question. I built my home deep in the forest.

To get any kind of sat signal, I woudl have to do a major tree dropping. That would ruin the effects of living remote deep in the forest.



wm300

 

[WM-300]

ECU is on the driver side of engine just above the oil pan rail about mid block. Connecters can be reached from top or by removing the driver side fender liner.



The code will not clear until it is cleared by a capable programmer. It will go dormant and not cuas eissues if the source is found.



Dealer is obnoxiuosly expensive for an ECU. You want one of the ECU rebuilder places for $700-$800 exchange. New list price is like $2200 for an ECU.

Thanks for your response.

WIll this P0602 code eventually fail and leave me shut down on the road ? Can a Cummins dealership also flash the ECU or is the flashing needed to be done by dodge to match the rest of the dodge stuff.



FInally, in all respect to you... ... ... Does anyone else have experience, and believe my problem is either the ECU or the Plugs. Its a terrible lot of money to spend and then find the problem is still with me.



Wm300

 

[cerberusiam]

WIll this P0602 code eventually fail and leave me shut down on the road ? Can a Cummins dealership also flash the ECU or is the flashing needed to be done by dodge to match the rest of the dodge stuff.

Don't think anybody has ever reported it completely shut a truck down, but, there is a first for everything.



Cummins won't and can't work on the computers. Thet don't have the capability to flash the Dodge specific program into the ECU. A dealer can relfash but not reload. With codes like this one you have to try it to see if it is a program glitch or hardware failure.

 

[WM-300]

Don't think anybody has ever reported it completely shut a truck down, but, there is a first for everything.



Cummins won't and can't work on the computers. Thet don't have the capability to flash the Dodge specific program into the ECU. A dealer can relfash but not reload. With codes like this one you have to try it to see if it is a program glitch or hardware failure.

Thank you for the reply, however it begs the following questions;



If a dodge dealer cant reload, who can ?



How does one try to see if its a program glitch or hardware failure.



I need to pin down the problem before I toss hundreds of dollars on it and maybe still am not fixed.



WM300

 

[cerberusiam]

Thank you for the reply, however it begs the following questions;



If a dodge dealer cant reload, who can ?



How does one try to see if its a program glitch or hardware failure.



I need to pin down the problem before I toss hundreds of dollars on it and maybe still am not fixed.



WM300

The ECU rebuilding places have access to the Dodge programs to load the ECU's. You give them your VIN and they load the correct program for the VIN with the VIN in it so it communicates with the other controllers.



If your lucky you get a good ECU the first time. Keep in mind it can take up to 3 ECU's to get a good one. Some get a good one the first, others like the prson that called me wondering what was up with the ECU rebuilder aren't as lucky. The first ECU was dead when installe din the truck, would net even initialize and start the truck. The 2nd started and ran, barely, with about 15 codes that could not be resolved. The 3rd one was a charm, worked perfectly and cured the riginal problem of hitting a wall at 2500 rpms and defueling. # 1/2 weeks late rhed his truck back, not happy about it, but his truck was runnign correctly again.



Therein lies the problem, it is almost impossible to seperate what is an electronic glitch as opposed to a hardware failure until you go thru the process of reflashing. If a reflash doesn't cure it and there is no indication it is a sensor process of elmination says its a hardware failure in the ECU. No hard info it is the ECU but thats all that is really left to be the problem.



You can tell just how hard it is with the symptoms you have. From your description the truck runs great when over 23 mph, under that it is a dog. Still runs just not like it should. It is obviously a problem but the solution is not so obvious. The P0602 code is a catch all failure code. What it really means is the error handling system has no idea what is wrong, just something is. The ECU is not smart enough to self diagnose itself.



If it was me this is what I would do:



Check batteries and verify with a load tester they are both good, replace if there is any question.



Clean all the battery connections, chassis brounds, etc.



Unplug the ECU A& B connectors, spray down with electricla contact cleaner and reseat, Same thing with the big connector on the driver side firewall.



Before reconnecting batteries, tie the ground cables together for at least 30 minutes with all battery connections disconnected. This will dishcarge all the capacitors internally and reset everyhthing. Strange as it sounds I have fixed 2 trucks with performance issues and oddball codes like yours.



If that does not help, replace the MAP sensor. They will sometimes work but not correctly and not throw codes.



If that does not resolve the issues then it is time to go to the dealer and have a reflash done. If that doesn't cure it it almost has to be an ECU issue unless you get more codes.



Good luck, electrical glitches like this are a total pain to resolve.

 

[WM-300]

The ECU rebuilding places have access to the Dodge programs to load the ECU's. You give them your VIN and they load the correct program for the VIN with the VIN in it so it communicates with the other controllers.



If your lucky you get a good ECU the first time. Keep in mind it can take up to 3 ECU's to get a good one. Some get a good one the first, others like the prson that called me wondering what was up with the ECU rebuilder aren't as lucky. The first ECU was dead when installe din the truck, would net even initialize and start the truck. The 2nd started and ran, barely, with about 15 codes that could not be resolved. The 3rd one was a charm, worked perfectly and cured the riginal problem of hitting a wall at 2500 rpms and defueling. # 1/2 weeks late rhed his truck back, not happy about it, but his truck was runnign correctly again.



Therein lies the problem, it is almost impossible to seperate what is an electronic glitch as opposed to a hardware failure until you go thru the process of reflashing. If a reflash doesn't cure it and there is no indication it is a sensor process of elmination says its a hardware failure in the ECU. No hard info it is the ECU but thats all that is really left to be the problem.



You can tell just how hard it is with the symptoms you have. From your description the truck runs great when over 23 mph, under that it is a dog. Still runs just not like it should. It is obviously a problem but the solution is not so obvious. The P0602 code is a catch all failure code. What it really means is the error handling system has no idea what is wrong, just something is. The ECU is not smart enough to self diagnose itself.



If it was me this is what I would do:



Check batteries and verify with a load tester they are both good, replace if there is any question.



Clean all the battery connections, chassis brounds, etc.



Unplug the ECU A& B connectors, spray down with electricla contact cleaner and reseat, Same thing with the big connector on the driver side firewall.



Before reconnecting batteries, tie the ground cables together for at least 30 minutes with all battery connections disconnected. This will dishcarge all the capacitors internally and reset everyhthing. Strange as it sounds I have fixed 2 trucks with performance issues and oddball codes like yours.



If that does not help, replace the MAP sensor. They will sometimes work but not correctly and not throw codes.



If that does not resolve the issues then it is time to go to the dealer and have a reflash done. If that doesn't cure it it almost has to be an ECU issue unless you get more codes.



Good luck, electrical glitches like this are a total pain to resolve.

Thak you for your help. I will work on it per your direction.

Sure sounds like a crap shoot, a place for stealerships and rebuilders to do sloppy work. Sure wish I had bought a beautiful 1ST gen instead of this nightmare.



WM300

 

[cerberusiam]

Sure wish I had bought a beautiful 1ST gen instead of this nightmare.

Careful what you wish for, thats another can of worms.



A lot of parts are NS1 for the 1st gens. We are adapting and manufacturing parts all the time. It ain't a perfect world no matter what you have. :-laf

 

[WM-300]

PROBLEM SOLVED....WHO WOUld HAVE THUNK

The problem described in my first post has been solved !!!! Keep in mind that I had to reach a speed of roughly 23 MPH before the engine came to life with any power. During this time, RPM would not exceed roughly 2000. It was like it was not getting fuel.
*************************************************************************************************
I was sitting at the bank this morning in the drive up window. They are breaking in a new teller and she is VERY slow. I was bored and started to play with my Jake Brake. I always run with my Jake armed. Sitting at the window, I was hearing the normal sound of my engine with the jake on. I pushed the Jake switch to off.....
zippo... ..... nada... ... the jake is staying active. Now what ! Roughly 30 seconds later the Jake turns off. I turn it on and INSTANTLY it operates and I can hear its operational. Turn it off and again roughly 30 seconds before it opens the exhaust flapper. I try it a few more times and it replicates exactly. Turns on instantly but lags for roughly 30 seconds before it shuts off.

The teller brings my money and I am off. I head to a back road where there is no traffic and I can stop and launch at will. With the Jake switch turned off (not armed) my truck is totally back to normal. I am ready to take on Corvettes LOL !
I can duplicate 100% this normal launch with the normal power of my HO engine.

Now for the real test. Stop, turn on the Jake Brake. At Idle, its instantly on, I can hear its working. I launch and once again I am back to a no power launch until roughly 23 MPH and the engine is like its not getting fuel. I stop and repeat this many times with the Jake turned on. Every launch, the engine has no power. I then turn the jake off, wait till it opens the flapper and I have full power launches once again. On my authority, I can 100% create the problem or clear the problem.

Now, I understand whats happening on launch. The Jake is not opening when I hit the go pedal. I am running the engine on launch with the exhaust restricted by the Jake flapper being closed. When the engine reaches roughly 23 mph, there is enough back pressure to force the Jake open. Since I am on the Go Pedal, there is no vacuum to the Jake Flapper but its sluggish to open. The Back pressure pushes it open with the aid of the spring in the vacuum diaphragm.

Final test... ... apply brakes with the Jake armed. Foot off the go pedal, 2 seconds the jake activates. Slow down, mash the go pedal, its dead because I am calling for power against a closed Jake Brake. Finally it opens and off I go.

I have the Jake turned off now and all is well... . Vettes and Vipers look out LOL
When it gets cooler, I need to find why the Jake is sticking. I believe its all carboned up around the flapper or control arm pivot. I hope some good carbon cleaner will free her up. I do know the vacuum pump is working as it should, the signal to the ECN is as it should be, the vacuum solenoid is working.

So if you have a Jake and experience no power as I have described in this thread, head for the Jake Brake as a possible and probable problem.

I could kiss the slow teller at the bank. Without her being slow, I woudl not have started to play with the Jake while I waited and the problem woudl still be haunting me.

Keep in mind, on a 2003 the Jake is wired into the ecm. Foot off the go pedal, 2 seconds the Jake activates, hit the go pedal and it should instatly release. Jake on at idle till go pedal is pushed.

WM300

 

[Prairie Dog]

It would be interesting to watch the signal from the ECM - the only thing the ECM does is ground the pin going to the Jake in order to provide a ground for its relay.
You could do this by attaching a test light of some sort and using the ECM connection as the ground (the + would have to be hot all the time. ) If the light comes on as soon as you put your foot on the accelerator then the ECM is fine and there maybe a bad relay in the Jake or perhaps it isn't creating enough vacuum. If it the lamp comes doesn't come then on then I suspect either the ECM or the APPS is faulty.

 

[AH64ID]

Glad you found the culprit, and looking foreword to hearing more.

 

[Prairie Dog]

It would have been interesting (or scary) to see what the EGT's were doing.

 

[cerberusiam]

This just underscores the IMPORTANCE of a signature with ALL the modification and accessoriy info displayed.



May not have been obvious at first but a lot of people may have looked at it and said, "Are you sure the EB is off?".



Glad you found the problem without a lot of hassle and expense. Another reason to leave the EB off until it is needed.

 

[WM-300]

The Root Cause

Final post, the root cause of the problem.



The sintered bronze air filter on the Jake Brake solenoid valve was completely plugged. Soaking in solvent and air pressure cleaned from the inside out. If the Jake/Cummins installation manual is followed exactly, the solenoid is located right behind the right side battery on a 2003 and mounted to the battery tray. The filter sticks out of the solenoid and faces rear and is removed with a 9/16" box wrench.

Jake works as designed, trucks works, all is well



The above fix was found in the Cummins/Jake install manual under troubleshooting; Jake slow to release (my words... or not releasing)



My Jake is always armed. It saves service brakes and keeps the flapper assembly moving so it does not carbon up and not function.



WM-300

 

[jhenderson]

I wish I had seen this post earlier, I had the same problem 2 years ago. Now I clean the filter twice a year. I'm glad you found the problem.