No red fuel for the 2013?

[dclassens]

At one of the CMEP seminars with the CUMMINS engineer, there was some discussion about the usage of RED off road fuel in new cummins trucks, and how they WILL NOT run with it. I work for the local municipality. We have 300 vehicles, and being government, we pay no road tax. We are in the process of upgrading some of our fleet. The last bid process came back with new cummins power dodge trucks. We were all shocked because we have been 100% Ford. There is now a few 6. 7 power stroke trucks, along with every power stroke ever made(about 25 total). When I heard about switching to DODGE, I remembered the red fuel topic at cummins and immediately I explained the whole tour and what TDR was. They said bring in some proof. SO... ... . before we make the mistake of buying trucks we can not fuel, PLEASE HELP PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH DATA OR A PERSON TO CONTACT ABOUT THIS ISSUE. I know the government makes many mistakes, but this one would be for the record books where I work. I have also touched base with TDR staff about getting in contact with somebody. Thanks a ton, I hope you can help!!!!!!

Dave



PS ~ i have done some searching on TDR, but didn't turn up any real data that would help my cause

PSS ~ it would be nice to have cummins stuff over Ford, even though I am not a tire kicker

PSSS ~ the person at CMEP that was discussing this issue had a British accent, and knew most the tech stuff, like compression, & bore sizes.

 

[sag2]

The only thing different about red fuel is the dye they add. It should all be #2 low or ultra low sulfur diesel. You should be able to ask your supplier what it is for sure.

 

[JR]

Are you referring to a previous rally or this year's? I believe there was a few years where the off road fuel was still LSD after the highway fuel had switched to ULSD. But other than that, there is not any difference. The regular highway fuel has a road tax used in construction and maintenance of highways, while the offroad fuel does not carry that tax and is therefore dyed to make it easy for LEO to enforce. It is illegal to run the dyed off road fuel in any highway engine, I'm sooo glad to see the govt exempt in yet another area... .

 

[BDaugherty]

It's my understanding as well that on and off road fuel are exactly the same with the difference being the dye to indicate intended usage.
I also agree that you should contact your supplier for the specs on your fuel. As much as I hate to say it, I think the Cummins rep was not 100% correct.

 

[Bill Stockard]

The only thing different about red fuel is the dye they add.

Yep, that's true for the off road fuel I purchase at either of the local fuel wholesalers. I purchase dyed off road diesel fuel regularly for my tractors. It's all the same stuff... ULSD with red dye in it. The invoices and Bill of Lading I receive with each purchase lists the fuel as ULSD. Many of the newer off road engines must meet Tier IV regulations which requires ULSD the same as on road vehicles.



Bill

 

[JR]

It's my understanding as well that on and off road fuel are exactly the same with the difference being the dye to indicate intended usage.
I also agree that you should contact your supplier for the specs on your fuel. As much as I hate to say it, I think the Cummins rep was not 100% correct.

Unless maybe he is talking about a previous rally, when the off road fuel was still being produced in LSD Form. I think they switched to ULSD for the off road in 2010 vs 2006? Or 07 for the highway fuel. I could see that making a difference and voiding a warranty being the 07. 5 And newer trucks are designed to run off ULSD.

 

[jhenderson]

When I ran our town highway dept I was told we were not liable for State tax but had to pay fed highway tax for all our on road equipment. Have things changed?

 

[Jim W]

At one of the CMEP seminars with the CUMMINS engineer, there was some discussion about the usage of RED off road fuel in new cummins trucks, and how they WILL NOT run with it. I work for the local municipality. We have 300 vehicles, and being government, we pay no road tax. We are in the process of upgrading some of our fleet. The last bid process came back with new cummins power dodge trucks. We were all shocked because we have been 100% Ford. There is now a few 6. 7 power stroke trucks, along with every power stroke ever made(about 25 total). When I heard about switching to DODGE, I remembered the red fuel topic at cummins and immediately I explained the whole tour and what TDR was. They said bring in some proof. SO... ... . before we make the mistake of buying trucks we can not fuel, PLEASE HELP PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH DATA OR A PERSON TO CONTACT ABOUT THIS ISSUE. I know the government makes many mistakes, but this one would be for the record books where I work. I have also touched base with TDR staff about getting in contact with somebody. Thanks a ton, I hope you can help!!!!!!
Dave

PS ~ i have done some searching on TDR, but didn't turn up any real data that would help my cause
PSS ~ it would be nice to have cummins stuff over Ford, even though I am not a tire kicker
PSSS ~ the person at CMEP that was discussing this issue had a British accent, and knew most the tech stuff, like compression, & bore sizes.

Here is the Clean-Diesel Fuel Alliance home page link.

This page shows the time line for introduction of ULSD fuel for non road use. By 2014 all diesel fuel regardless of use must be ULSD.

Hope this helps?

Jim W.

http://www.clean-diesel.org/nonroad.html

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I believe the above responses should cover the subject accurately. I can get in touch with the Cummins guys if needed. Was it the one discussing maintenance. lubes, and filters, or the one who gave the overall tech discussion? There is no magic involved. If the fuel is clean and ULSD, it will be fine.

 

[dclassens]

Thanks for the responses. I have been around TDR over 10 years and have read lots of posts about fuel. I have bought, sold and maintained 5 dodge diesel trucks. I have ASE master tech certificate in both auto and heavy trucks. I kinda knew when I posted this, I was going to hear about the differences in fuel and why they will work. I really appreciate the data on fuel. From what I read all the post are very accurate and very helpful.

I was sitting in Columbus Indiana at the cummins mid range engine plant tour, and one of the cummins employees who was giving the seminar said some thing to the effect of "you must run cummins only fuel filters and red fuel will not run in these trucks.

I agree, this sounds crazy. What about the new cummins makes it so only cummins filters run and also why no red fuel.
If any body remembers this data, or has a connection to the cummins folk, it would be great to have documentation as to why this may be the case.

Joe, I think the person who said this was the gentleman from Europe with the accent. It was inside the plant, and I think it came up regarding overall engine changes and things that are new. Thanks again. I know this should work, but if there is a chance that this is true, then we would have a real problem at work due to the fact that we run 100% dyed fuel. We do not ever run the green stuff.

Dave

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

The only reasons to run Cummins/Fleetguard/Mopar filters are quality, filtering capacity and micron rating, and for the new trucks, the arm that depresses the check ball in the fuel feed. As for the fuel, if it is clean, good quality, and ultra low sulfur, run it. The only real concerns are too much sulfur for the emissions system, and dirty, wet, contaminated fuel. "Farm" storage tanks can be a problem for these reasons.

 

[Cummins12V98]

Just checked the local Cenex Farm Supply off road pump and it was 15 PPM.

Kinda makes ya go HMMM!

 

[JR]

Been that way since 2010.

Except Cali, they made the switch in 2006 when the highway fuel went to ULSD.

 

[JDC]

today, all commercially available diesel is ULSD... . it doesn't matter if it is taxed or not. The trucks will run either just as well.

 

[Sticks]

The only thing that I can remotely imagine is that the dye used may have a high micron rating which will only plug the filters. Even more remote is that the dye will not play well with the DPF and plug them, coat the temp sensors so they become inaccurate, mess with the EGR valves (do the new Cummins have EGR?) etc.

The dye does play different that regular #2. I don't know what it is, and it may just be the components in the Hotsy (I know, apples to oranges here for this discussion), but I have worked with three companies that used to run red in the pressure washers, and the red fuel screwed them up, and were rather expensive to replace the affected components - with a stern warning from the techs - don't use red, or we will not honor the warranty again.

 

[TCDiesel]

Call your local refinery Or the refinery that produces the fuel for Your State or Area, they will clearly Tell YOU its 100% ULSD, they will NOT produce any other rated fuel... So regardless of the hearsay that's the fact. My neighbor Works as a chemist at Flint Hills refinery, or were ever the company sends him, He has Stated to Me exactly the procedure the refinery uses and they daily checks the quality and status of the fuel. The dye is generally added at the supplier end. I cannot remember the exact fuel ratio form when I work at Gas Supply but it was only ounces per 1000 gallons.

 

[TCDiesel]

Here some good reading, http://www.performancefuels.com/product/ My neighbor has conformed the statement to NEVER use additives, in fact he has stated to me in the in extreme Hot/Cold climates the additive will cause the fuel to separate.