Noise! Transmission?

[JMDancoe]

Ref: My signature truck (86/92 Retro).

At the time we did the retrofit, I purchased a used automatic trans. We did a serial number check with a Dodge dealer and was told it was a "518". It is an overdrive transmission. It has performed flawlessly up until a few days ago. Still performs like it should, it just seems to be noisey (all of a sudden). Sounds a lot like an old standard trans car or truck winding up or down through the gears. My overdrive is on a driver operated only switch. Going up through the gears (accelerating normally). It "whines" through all the gears (not unbearable, but noisey). Loudest at about 61 mph. When I let off the throttle in OD, of course, it goes quiet as it is basically free-wheeling. When (at about 40 mph) I switch out of OD the noise comes back and continues until I stop.

When we installed it, we added a deep sump pan and pickup and a temp gauge at the rear of the pan. Trans has never gotten over 187 degrees. That was while pulling 7100 lb trailer from Phoenix to South Fork, Co. last summer. Normally will not move the gauge off the 140 degree bottom line.

About the same time the noise started, it ran in the 150 to 160 degree range for about three days (normal local driving - 90 to 98 degree ambient air temp). It has two coolers. Block mounted tank type and small air type mounted front left in front of raditor. It has 1/2 inch copper lines to and from the front cooler. The check valve (in line) to the block mounted cooler has been removed as recommended by several people. Truck is never driven without allowing the trans to pump itself up (due to no check valve).

I pulled the pan and the pan was totally clean. No band/clutch material and no metal particles. Has been on Amsoil fluid since installed. Fluid looks and smells new.

To rule out rear axle noise, I removed cover and checked it also. Same story as the trans. Clear gear oil (Amsoil 75/140) and no metal (magnet looked like someone had lightly smeared "never sieze" on it. Only particles found. No slop in gears.

So, now the questions! Do any of you have any ideas as to what might be the source of the noise? In the worst case senario, if I need to replace the trans, any suggestions as to what and who to get one from?

Thanks



Jim

 

[DVolk]

Did you check the t-case ?????? and does any thing feel warmer than normal or hotter than normal ?

 

[JMDancoe]

It is a 2WD, so no transfer case. Using an infared temp gun, 137 degrees at rear of pan (at temp sending unit), 123 degrees at front of pan, 163 degrees on the output line (at temp kickout switch and 150 degrees on the side of the overdrive unit. Trans cooler lines at the front of truck 93 and 96 degrees. Even checked the rear end temp and it was 125 degrees. It's got me baffled.

 

[cerberusiam]

Doesen't matter how warm or cool the trans is, the plantetaries are not adequate to handle the TQ or the engine.



Sounds pretty typical when you get up in mileage. The planetaries are only 4 pinion aluminum cases, the OD planetary a straight cut. A little wear and it whines.



OD is likely the D planetary, 1st and 2nd are front and rear planetaries but drive is not. Doesn't mean the other pieces aren't worn and cause noise though.



FYI, if its an OD non-lockup auto its a 518. You can upgrade all the parts in it that wear out with 47 and 48 parts for longer life. Add clutches in clutch packs also.

 

[JMDancoe]

This is probably a stupid question, but any guess as to how long before it takes a dump?

Also, what am I looking at cost wise and would it be better to buy a built unit?

Would it be better to pick up a 47 or 48 and replace it entirely with that series?

Any foreseable problems changing from the 518 to either the 47 or 48 and which would be the better route?

Reason for first question is it would be better for me to do it at my brother's home in Colorado as he has a shop.

Here in Mississippi, I have to work outside in the dirt and mud. Would like to drive it there.

 

[cerberusiam]

Hard telling how long it will last. It might go another 50-100k or quit tomorrow. Usually when they start making noise all the time something is wrong, at that point flip a coin.



Cost for a good solid rebuilt 47RH is going to be in the $4000 range, depending on what you want done. Closer to $5000 if oyu want 48 parts in it. Those steel case 6 pinion planetaries are EXPENSIVE. A lockup and good TC makes a huge difference in driveability, the downside is the cost.



You can essentially make a 47RH out of a 46RH with just parts. The cases are getting expensive and hard to find. A non-functional core is like $600 with a running high mileage one at $1000-1200. Depending on what you want to spend, it might make sense to look into sourcing the parts and upgrading your existing case if you can find a builder to do it locally.



Oh yeah, you will need to source an engine adapter and starter to swap in a 47RH. The rest of the retrofitting amounts to redrilling some holes and wiring a switch for lockup.

 

[JMDancoe]

Thanks for all the info. I will have to think on this, as I have a limited income (S/S). May have to down the truck for a year and stay put, but who knows. Thanks again.



Jim

 

[cerberusiam]

I understand, even working a $4-5k transmission offends my frugality.



With the right builder you may be able to just rebuild yours and replace worn parts for $2-3k and have all you need. If you burn the trans down or break it, then it will cost more.



Good luck. If you need a garage and help to swap the trans I am a lot closer than Colorado.

 

[JMDancoe]

Thanks again but will have to think this over. May end up just putting in another user and getting by for now. I appreciate your help with this and the offer of a place.



Jim

 

[JMDancoe]

I do have one more question. If the planatary gear assemblies are the problem, wouldn't I have some metal particles in the pan?



Jim

 

[JMDancoe]

Another question. If I could pick up a used stock 47e, what would you recommend doing to it before installation? I do not treat my truck hard, but want to be able to pull a travel trailer without problems. For the most part, I am very easy on my equipment.

 

[cerberusiam]

I do have one more question. If the planatary gear assemblies are the problem, wouldn't I have some metal particles in the pan?



Jim

Or excess fine balck stuff on the magnet if it is chewing things up. The black sludge is usually metal. When you start seeing a lot of larger brass or aluminum then you have a problem.



The aluminum carriers wear over time allowing the mesh on the gears to get out of the worn in pattern and that causes the whine. Like a ring gear that is not exactly back in its pattern. May or may not see any metal, really depends on what is actually the issue.



A 47RE is going to be problematic because you don't have a PCM to control it. PCS has a standalone controller but its a chunk of change to implement it. You want a 47RH and a good one of those is hard to find.



A shift kit and few othe rinternal billet pieces for the front servo and band apply linkage will make a world of difference in how the trans works and holds towing. A lower stall higher efficiency TC makes another jump in usability. A few simple things will make holding 350-400 HP quite doable.



A 47RH\RE doesn't have the steel cage 5 pinion planetaries either and they will get loose over time also. They at least have the 15 degree OD planetary that holds up better than the straight cut ones.



If somebody gave you the 47RE then you could spend the $$ on the controller and other needed parts. A simple implementation is around $800-900, some wiring and programming to control the gov solenoid. A fully electronic setup with electronic VB is around $2k. Some of this may be dependent on having a wheel speed signal and TPS signal to allow the electronics to work. You can add those but again its more cost to think about.

 

[JMDancoe]

Ok, no black stuff (metal particles) or even brown stuff (band & clutch material) in pan.

Magnet is clean. Fluid has about 20,000 miles on it (Amsoil full synthetic).

Going by your first reply, I "assume" (good way to get in trouble), that I could rebuild my existing 518 and upgrade it with steel planetaries and extra clutches in clutch packs and have a good unit. What do you think of the "Red Eagle" rebuild kits? Assuming, of course I get the steel planetaries to go with the kit?

My truck is a strictly stock 1992 5. 9 with a slight pump upgrade producing about (never dynoed) 160 HP. "When and if", I do this, you and yours have a steak dinner coming to you for the help. Georgia isn't that far away. I am going to chance the Colorado trip, as it is my mind stabilizing get away each summer. However, I will come to Georgia and take you and yours out for dinner, so start thinking about a nice place in your area. I wish you could make the 1st Gen meet in Ia. , as I also plan to make that on my way to Colorado. Please accept my dinner offer, as it will be fun to get with another 1st Gen member. If you ever travel through north Mississippi, please come by and visit. I have enough land to accomidate several RV's.

 

[cerberusiam]

You don;t Red Eagles or Kolene steels, those are racing clutches and steels.



What you need is basically the steel cage 4 or 5 pinion planetaries, a steel cage OD planetary with the 15 degree cut, a rebuild kit, TC, a set of Raybestos High Energy clutches, a shift kit, billet accumulator, billet front and rear servos, billet band sturt and anchor. That will hold all the power you make and give you a solid trans.



If your at stock power you maybe don't even need the steel cage planetaries just new aluminum cage ones. They should go 200-250k depending on load. The steel ones are nice cuz they will take the TQ and towing much better.



If your TC is still good I have a machine shop here that will rebuild it. lower the stall and increase the efficiency for about $200. Worked real well on the one I had them do. the 518 TC's are a bit rare and they all want a core unless you send one back.



As a matter of fact, barring anymore annoying problems I will be rolling down I-20 from Atlanta to Shreveport and back in about 2 weeks. Thru Tupelo on the 3rd of june and likely back thru there on the 7th or 8th of June. Or I might jump south to Shreveport from OKC or maybe go thru Nashville back to Atlanta. Either way, I will be heading your way several times in the next month.



Where in Mississippi are you located?

 

[JMDancoe]

Thanks again. I will be gone from May 30th through June 4th for a trip to Dallas, Tx. and then am leaving for Colorado on or about June 6th for the 1st Gen meet in Lenox, Ia.

From there to Colorado for the summer. Probably until Late September or early October.

I live in Amory, Ms. on US 278, which is about 23 miles southeasrt of Tupelo, Ms.

At least that is the plan, if I think the trans will hold for it.

How long does it take to rebuild the converter? I may want to ship it to the shop you mentioned from Colorado. All that, will depend largely on whether or not my brother Jack (JDancoe on TDR) feels he is willing to help me rebuild this trans. He has a shop and a lot of tools, that I don't have, but I am not sure what "special" tools we will need and the expense to aquire them.



Jim

 

[DVolk]

I wonder if it you wouldnt be better off to just get a adapter and put a allison it ?

 

[JMDancoe]

Donovan, at this point, I am not sure. The main deal at present will be final cost. I will have to look over all options. I may end up just buying another user and crossing my fingers again, for a while. That is, of course, if I can find one. I could put that in and then begin rebuilding mine. It's just more bad luck, which is something I am no stranger to. It's never stopped me before and I hope it won't this time. Thanks for the suggestion. I appreciate all help.



Jim

 

[cerberusiam]

Its just hard to tell. I have one in a 93 that howls all the time like what you are describing. I drove it from Seattle to Atlanta with no problems the TC gave up after I was home. Its been doing this for 3 years and 60k+ and still works fine.



On the other hand, it could just quit tomorrow if it spits a tooth of the planetary just right. Its like a diff, it will howl and still run fine for years and miles.



Shipping the TC will take longer than rebuilding it. Depends on how busy the converter guy is but usually a day or 2 turn around is normal.



Tentatively, plan is to leave here on the 26th May with a load of houshold and a horse going to Shreveport. Will unload there and head back home on the 27th. Your not that far of my route and probably may need to stop somewhere Miss\Ala border area to spend the nigh. Not because I could not make it, because I don't want to. Want to see things in the daylight.



If you want a 2nd opinion, that and a $ would get you a coffee, I would be happy to swing by and talk trucks.

 

[JMDancoe]

I appreciate the offer, but it would be about 150 miles out of route for you and you are in business to make money. I know what it costs to run extra miles in a Semi. I drove one for 30+ years. Depending on things here, it would be better for me to meet up with you, in or around the Meririan, Ms. or Tuscaloosa, Al areas. Meridian is a three hour drive for me and Tuscaloosa is about a two hour drive. It's not only the cost, but hours in the log book.



Jim

 

[JMDancoe]

I just got an email from my brother. He said he has to be in Phoenix, Az. for a couple of weeks, so he is going to see what he can find there. He also suggested putting an add on TDR and seeing if anyone has a unit they would be willing to sell.



May be someone in route to his place.



I guess I'll see what comes of the Phoenix trip for now. Still willing to meet you, though.



Jim