2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission nOOb buying truck, need advice

[GECCO]

Hello all, I have been directed here by a friend who is a member, I'm hoping you all can help me out. I've been poking around for a few days and this place seems like an incredible wealth of information!



I am looking for a truck to pull my enclosed motorcycle trailer and have settled on the Dodge diesel for many reasons that aren't really important. I've spent a couple weeks looking online and in the classifieds and it seems that my price range will allow me something in the 1999-2003 era depending on mileage, condition, etc.



What I am looking for is a laymans summary of what the pro's and cons may be for different trucks in this era as they came from the factory. For instance, I have heard various things about transmission and steering upgrades around 2002, addition of rear disc brakes, and certain engine blocks to avoid (the 53?). I plan on an auto transmission. I have seen some trucks advertised as having the HO engine in years/combinations I didn't think were available, can someone clear that up? What is the difference the HO engine provides?



I know there will be MANY varied opinions as to which is better, etc and for what reasons and I don't want to start a war with my first post, but I do want to make as informed of a decision as possible before dropping $20,000+ on one of these trucks.



Thanks in advance for any and all feedback!

 

[Mundgyver]

2001 is the first year of the H. O. motor. It has the HX-35 turbo vice the HY and different pistons for higher compression and the VP-44 is different also. These reason are why it had more HP and TQ. It was also fitted to the 6 speed and a Dana-80 making the truck a 1 ton even though is was listed as a 3/4 ton. 2001. 5 was when they came out with the rear disc brakes. The 53 blocks were before 2001 if I recall. Mine has a 56 block. I have 160,000 + turns on my truck now and still have my original clutch and original brakes and original VP-44. I get 23. 8 mpg if I drive reasonalble. Biggest load I have pulled is 23,000 GVW with no problems.



2002 is the last year of the mechanical injector and the last year for the 2nd gen. So figure that most of the bugs of the 2nd gen were worked out for creature comforts.



You will need a Darins Steering Stablalizer and track bar upgrade if you buy a truck that is stock. Plan on a better lift pump also.



Welcome aboard

 

[GECCO]

Thanks for the insight! I have a couple more ??'s



- what is the VP44 I see so much about here?

- has the HO motor ever been mated to an auto transmission or is it manual only?

- can anyone shed more light on the various auto trannies offered from 99-03? specifically, are there any to avoid, and if so how do I identify it?



Glenn

 

[Mundgyver]

The VP-44 is the high pressure fuel injection pump, the heart of the motor so to speek. The H. O. was not offered with the automatics.



Most of the automatics with the exception of the 3500's I believe came with a Dana-70 rear end stock. The 47RE Automatic has been an issue when stock for reliability. There are after market outfits that can beef them up.



They also offered a 5 speed. The 6 speed gave a better transition between 3rd and 4th if I remember correctly. Someone will chime in and correct me if I am wrong. The 6 speed gives you a heavier GVW rating than the automatic when you are in stock form. For my year of truck 2001 H. O. 6 Speed my GVW was 8,800 lbs with a loaded rating of 20,000 total for truck and trailer. A friend of mine bought the automatic and was 4,000 lbs less for total rating then mine. This was in stock form with no mods.



Typically in stock form the manual transmission will give better economey than an automatic, less loss of tq through the drive train. The newer automatics are getting better though.



You need to think about what you will be doing with the truck. Daily driver, toy, ??? how will you be using it. Are you going to mod it, if so do you want reliabilty or are you looking to outrun, and outgun anything on the street. I have upgraded my truck to provide maximum reliabilty with good overall performance for what I do. I make allot of cross country trips and do not want a breakdown but I like to have good MANUVERING POWER for the highway.

 

[Jim Brewer]

You will need a Darins Steering Stablalizer and track bar upgrade if you buy a truck that is stock. Plan on a better lift pump also.

Good advise. Oh, and welcome Gecco.



I did the DSS, TBK, and T-link mods and posted the article here:

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119499



I can help you with it when the time comes.

 

[Ol'TrailDog]

I'd forgo the 2003 as a first year model change with possible bugs, e. g. vibrations, ECM flashes, and etc.



The 01. 5 was the beginning of disc brakes in the rear.



Definately go for the six speed in a HO.



Get a quad not a standard cab. If you want/foresee the need for a dually, get it before you decide you have to upgrade..... experience the expensive way.



imho

 

[SnoKing]

If you want a 4x4, get a 2001. 5 (Best of Breed). It has the disc on the rear and the front axle disconnect. In 2002 they dropped the CAD (Center Axle Disconnect). So for the 24 valves, 2001. 5 is the best. AKA a 2001 with disc brakes on the rear. SNOKING

 

[Mundgyver]

One thing that all here will aggree on, when you decide to upgrade or mod the truck, what ever you buy, the absolute first mod should be a good set of gages to include Boost, EGT, and Fuel Pressure. These 3 are an absolute as they will allow you to establish a base line of performance for your driving style and will give indications of problems should they arise.

 

[Regcabguy]

After owning a 99 2500 CTD, if I did it again it'd be a 2001. 5. The brakes and H. O. /six speed alone would be big plus. The extended cab would be a must along with required qauges. My neighbor up the street is on his 3rd factory injection pump and 4th lift pump and it is a stock 2001. 5. The dealer has honored all warranty work and has repeatedly asked him,"have you run a "computer" on this thing" They're referring to a performance box. So you're still not out of the woods even w/2001. 5's. Some guy's pumps last forever and others' die repeatedly. Darrin's steering enhancements are a huge plus.

 

[Mundgyver]

I guess I fall into the category of the VP lasting forever as I have 160,000+ turns now. But with that said, my inlet to the VP is not stock, it is 3/8th ID and I switched over too a FASS 150 GPH about 120,000 turns ago. So the pump runs cooler because of the volumn and an inline fuel cooler. Hopfully I will get another 100,000 out of the VP.



There are lots of mods and ideas for what is best and what works and such. In the end if falls on you and how you drive. The formum is a great place to find out about new thing and old things. Ask questions, do your comparisions while researching and decide what is right for your needs. These trucks are a kick in the pants to drive because of the Cummins. They are not bullet proof and can be broken when thrashed repeadetly, but then again they will last longer than the Chevys or Fords. We have several members that have a million + miles on their motors with out any problems. I do not know of any Chevy or Ford owner that can make that claim.



Lets us know what you get and have fun.

 

[GECCO]

Damn guys, thanks a lot #ad
I don't plan on making a super duper go fast machine, I actually want to lean towards staying reliable and getting the best mileage possible. As far as driving duties go this truck will probably be overkill for my immediate plans which is simply to tow a small, enclosed motorcycle trailer that weighs about 3000-3500 lbs fully loaded. I've been towing it with an old chevy van, then about a year ago I borrowed a friends bone stock '00 for a tow through the mountains to Utah. It pulled infinitely better, much faster and got better mileage in the process. I wasn't sure I could afford one of these trucks, so I yanked the tired 305 out of the van and ordered a GM 350 crate motor. It pulls better than the 305, but still a far cry from the diesel and the mileage still sucks, it gets about 12 MPG dead empty, only about 9 with the trailer. So, the new motor turned out to be a mistake, though hopefully it will make it a bit easier to sell.



Anyway, I plan to sell the van and then trade in my daily driver car on the truck, then use the truck for an all around vehicle and ride my motorcycle to work in the summer to save gas. Maybe get a beater car for the winters if diesel goes crazy again.



Thanks for the clarification on the HO/6 speed, I've seen a few trucks advertised as an HO motor, yet they have an automatic. I didn't think that was possible, now I have confirmation.



I have my eye on an almond exterior, tan interior quad cab long bed SLT. It's VERY clean. I got the original build sheet from the local dealer and it shows a 2002, non HO with the 47RE and Dana 70 3. 55. 2 owner, 60,000 miles, 8800# GVWR. The dealer confirms 4 wheel disc. Some of the things listed as "options" on the build sheet include:



ADJP heavy duty service group

AHLP heavy duty insulation group

NHBP aux transmission cooler

NMCP heavy duty engine cooling

DHAP lock up TC

BAZP 135A alternator

BCQP 750A maintenance free battery

SHCP rear stabilizer bar

My understanding is that most of this stuff is related to the "towing package" it is advertised as having. There's obviously more, but most of the rest isn't important.



I tracked down the last owner, he had it from 19,000 - 60,000 miles and says he only had two problems with it - transfer case (failed and left him stranded) and an engine sensor. Those jive with the warranty service history I have on it which shows replacement of part 14800501 "linkage - throttle position assembly" on one visit and replacement of part 21030101 "transfer case external part" (whatever that is) on another visit. It does not have a 5th wheel ball in it and this guy says he did very little towing with it. Since he has nothing to gain if I buy it, I figure he has no reason to lie.



I would really prefer a short bed, but they don't seem very plentiful. That was initially the only thing that made me shy away from the truck I am looking at. However, all the talk about the HO/6 speed combination has me thinking hard. I've always been a standard transmission guy anyway... hmmmmmm



Anyway, thanks again, I really appreciate all the feedback. Now that you know a bit more about what I wanna do and what I am looking at, is there anything that jumps out at anyone either in general or about the truck I describe above?



**edit** one more question - I know the HO was only offered with the 6 speed, but was the the 6 speed offered without the HO? In other words, if I see a truck (2001 or newer) advertised with a 6 speed can I assume it is an HO motor?

 

[Mundgyver]

Hmmm good question on the 6 speed without the an H. O. . I am not sure about that one. I do have the short bed vesion and love it. I bought mine from Dave Smith motors up in Kellog, Idaho.



Were are you located at. Sounds like you are in Utah or Colorado??

 

[Jim Brewer]

Dude, yes, the 6 speed came w/o the HO. At the risk of inviting flamebait, I would stick with an auto (pardon the pun). Especially if'n your going to eventually get a bigger trailer.

 

[GECCO]

I am in northern colorado with Mr Brewer ^^^^^^ one of these days I will get around to filling out the profile thing.



Can anyone quote some hard numbers regarding torque/HP/mileage of the standard motor vs the HO?



I am narrowing down my search! Oo. LoL Here's another question - I haven't yet seen a 2003 or newer that has the suicide doors, they are all 4 door. Is that all that was offered? If so, I have narrowed it down to a 2001 or 2002 since I don't want a 4 door.

 

[Mundgyver]

Yep let me think for minute.



This is from page 9-12 of the 2001 service manual supplement.



H. O. 6 speet MT only 245 HP @ 2700 rpm with 505 ft lbs tq @ 1600 rpm Compression ratio is 17. 0:1



Non H. O. A/T and 5 speed MT were 235 HP @ 2700 rpm with 460 ft lbs tq @ 1600 rpm and a Compression ratio of 16. 3:1

 

[GECCO]

wow, 13:1 vs 17:1? thats a pretty big jump... how much do you think that effects how big of a turbo you can put on the HO motor? I mean, it's not really my plan, but that's the first thing that came to mind when I saw it...

 

[Mundgyver]

The HO come with the HX 35 while the non HO has the HY 35. I still have my orginal turbo, clutch, and 30% original brakes left after 160,000 + turns.



Replacing the turbo is done by allot of folks. They like to use all different setups from a 35/40 hybred to twins. You can go mild to very very wild. But all things cost and if you alter too much beyond a mild chip box, you become your own warranty station.



I have not done mine, but when the time comes, I will probably move up to a set of twins. Right now I can get 23. 8 mpg driving easy and 19. 5 to 20 if I am moderate and 18. 5 if I am aggressive. This is unloaded of course. The original turbo is good and will last a very long time. My truck runs on a diet of nothing but synthetic oil. This was done because I tow heavy when I tow and oil temps in the engine can hit over 245*F on a long uphill pull with 23,000 lbs GVW. Depending on mods you can get up to 500 hp with a single. I think I can get right under 500 hp with my stock. I have not studied that out yet and someone here on the forum has a much better knowledge of that then I.



Just saw that I miss typed the compression ratio for the non HO. It is 16. 3:1 Sorry about that

 

[GECCO]

Just saw that I miss typed the compression ratio for the non HO. It is 16. 3:1 Sorry about that

No worries! That makes a lot more sense, though... I thought 13:1 seemed low. I don't know much about diesels, but I have built a few small block chevy's for short track cars and we've gone a little higher than that in them!

 

[Mundgyver]

The nice thing about Diesels, ya get loads of power for allot less than a gasser and you don't have to worry about plug wires and all that trash

 

[RM]

would you consider a regular cab st drw six speed ho look at the pictures at http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ronmonical@sbcglobal.net/album?.dir=/cb32 i have the truck for sale in the classifieds 2003 up thanks ron