Not the normal A/D filter replacement

[e8888]

I've got an AirDog 165, and a CAT 2um filter, supplying my dual CP3's. So the A/D pulls from my sump sends it through my Baldwin BF1275, then to my Fleetgaurd FF5617, then to my CAT 1R-0750, and finally to the CP3's. I often run through the deserts of California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas so fuel stations are few and far between, and often I just have to get fuel where I can. Injectors and CP3's are expensive and breaking down on the side of the road is even worse with those costs. My question is, I know the BF1275 is the best F/WS I can use, but the Fleetgaurd isn't the best F/F I can use. What filter should I use on the A/D that would still flow adequately and compliment my CAT filter? I'm thinking something in the 5-10um rating at 100GPH. Or should I just use the Donaldson P551313 on the A/D and get rid of my CAT filter? Again I can't always get the best fuel, but I always use Stanadyne Lubricity Formula at every fill-up and want the best protection for my 100hp injectors, and dual CP3's. Thanks in advance for any help you guys provide. With that said please provide some evidence to back up what you say, such as micron and GPH ratings.

 

[cerberusiam]

I would run a 10-15 um filter and the best W\S on the AD to keep the flow up, the 5 um with the good W\S in the stock canister and the CAT 3 um just in front of the CP-3's. You just aren't going to get much better filtration. The only other thing you could do better is lose the sump and do it correctly with a tank canister.

 

[e8888]

I would run a 10-15 um filter and the best W\S on the AD to keep the flow up, the 5 um with the good W\S in the stock canister and the CAT 3 um just in front of the CP-3's. You just aren't going to get much better filtration. The only other thing you could do better loses the sump and do it correctly with a tank canister.

I appreciate you trying to help, but honestly, this is not good advice. As I already stated I am looking for a 5-10um filter to run in the second spot (A/D F/F), and am running the best W/S on the A/D. The stock canister is already gone since I have an A/D (I'm not sure if you have one or not, but the A/D bypasses that). As far as the sump goes, it really is the best route to go since you can run the tank completely empty and not worry about 1/4 tank issues, and the W/S on the AirDog is a "primary" filter before the AirDog lift pump, or I'd have to spend more money on in-tank equipment that's not necessary. Also, I asked for filter recommendations WITH specs, which you did not give, you're just telling what kind of filter to run where. This doesn't help since a 10um filter from one company may only run 60GPH and from another company could be totally different. Essentially you are telling me to run a filter in a location that I literally just asked someone to help me find........Lastly, I feel like the setup that you have advised would greatly degrade PSI to the CP3's over a short amount of time, such as 5,000 miles or less.

 

[cerberusiam]

From the misconceptions you have it is better advice than you got when you compromised your fuel system.

The AD\FASS or any other system does NOT bypass the stock filter housing, failure to adequately research and buying into a party line does that. Unless you are running a competition rig there is not valid reason to remove the factory housing from the loop. If one is looking for the absolute best filtration then stepped multi-pass filtration with multiple W\S filters is the ticket. You cannot do it with 2 filters.

The only 1/4 tank issues that exist are form bad design and installation processes. A factory canister can full fuel down to empty and below with no issues and flow enough for al the power needed for a street driven truck.
The sump has effectively hurt the filtration by passing all the solids and water directly into the filtration system instead of leaving them on the bottom of the tank.

Since you never indicated the OE housing was removed I assumed you has built the system to the current recognized standards, aside from the sump hack. If you want the best filtration possible add it back or add another base with a 3rd filter for 5-7 um filtration and 95% WS.

Staying with what you have requires compromises, no free lunch here. The P551315 is the highest flow highest filtration capability that will fit the AD secondary filter and it doesn't have an absolute WS rating, not MFGR approved so take your chances. The downside is you will plug it quite fast if you do get bad fuel, it and the 1R have no published WS so you are relying on the BF to do it all and that is taking a big chance as a single pass will not pull all the water in a bad condition. Even 2 WS's likely won't get it all but they will plug and shut down the flow to save things. The secondary WS, like the factory filter gives, is just insurance for the incidents where emulsified water is higher than normal. You are basically stuck with lower flow filters with better WS or higher um filtration and total lack of WS past the AD primary.


I think you are way over thinking flow requirements and not balancing against the better filtration. What I recommend will in no way cause a pressure drop form end to end if the AD is functioning correctly, will provide better filtration, and mire than enough fuel for all the power you will ever need in a street driven truck. The less than 1% of the time you would ever see and issue, like exceeding 600 HP for more than fraction of the time, would be compensated by the CP-3's prioritizing fuel to the rail. It is just not an issue and any normal scenario. You will see less pressure\flow drop and cleaner fuel across 3 filters than ever will 2, and, when it is needed it will perform or shut the truck down.


As a compromise I would run the LF9594 on the AD secondary, 20/10 um filtration, 95/75% on water, and a 90 GPH rating. That gives you double WS which is the real killer, the 1R gets it down to 3 um where it is needed, and watch pressures after the 1R. To fix the compromise and clean up the crap the sump is sending thru the system, I would add a base with a FS1000, 10/5 um, 95/95 water, with a fuel heater in it.

 

[e8888]

Again, I appreciate your reply and some of the things you have mentioned I will apply to my system. Such as adding a second W/S, but my A/D already has a heater, and my fuel pressure gauge is on the CP3 feed line banjo. I googled LF9594 and came up with nothing so not sure what filter that is.

I did actually give the full breakdown of my fuel system and never mentioned the factory filter so that should imply it's not there. The 1/4 issue is not only real, it happens to 98% of people that install a FASS/AD and is in no way due to installation or design issues. I think you should go to http://pureflowairdog.com/manuals/A5SABD029.pdf and look at page 14 specifically, you will see that you do in fact bypass the stock filter location.

Even with my sump, which I have had since 2013, every time I drain my W/S there is ZERO water in it. Right now I have 3 filters and I get pressure drops, and I did explain my 3 filters in my OP.

Again I do appreciate some of the things you said, and I will more than likely install another filter head and put an FS1000 W/S before my A/D. You are right, one W/S is not enough especially with a sump. So I'll do 2 W/S and, I'm thinking I'll still do 2 F/F, but honestly not sure if I need the CAT. Or I could just run another BF1275 W/S on the other A/D filter spot if it would fit, so the A/D would have two W/S, and then it would go to my CAT 1R.

 

[e8888]

I think I'll do an FS1000 before the A/D, continue to use the BF1275 on the A/D, then use an FF5617 on the A/D, and continue to use my CAT 1R.

I believe that will be more than efficient to remove water and contaminants, and not cause restriction.

 

[cerberusiam]

Try LFF9594, missed a key stroke on the part number.

There is nothing in that link that says you MUST remove the factory housing and filter, it is dated information that is basically incorrect. A big line kit will resolve any potential issues for high flow fuel systems.


The 98% of problems with FASS\AD install is nothing but scare tactics to sell parts and bad install advice. Those 98% bought into the marketing glitz at places like http://pureflowairdog.com/manuals/A5SABD029.pdf and the myriad of places that say a draw straw outside the canister or a sump is the ONLY way to provide fuel. Sorry, proven fact that 98% of those concepts are total BS.

Many of us that have done the systems correctly know that and have stated it more than once. A lot of us are pushing thru 3 filters with an in-tank pump doing all it needs to provide more fuel and power than we need with top of the line filtration, in actual application better than AD's recommended solution.


With the fuel heater on the AD then you probably don't need another one inline. Just like the factory filter is an optional item, so is the fuel heater on the pumps. As long as you are operating where the average temps stay above 40 degrees then additional fuel heating is probably not needed. Sure would not hurt for the cooler days.

The FS1000 should go between the AD and the 1R filter, that is where it will be the most effective. Let the pump chew up the solids and separate as much water as possible then catch it downstream of the less efficient filter like the LFF9594, both are high flow filters so you will not lose anything in that position. Multi-pass filtration is the best known solution and you always go from high to low on the filtration scale in the fuel path.

As a further note, not doing that suspect AD pump any good with the sump either. Another downside to their recs. When it dies they sell you more parts, that is what they are in business for. Since you are already well down that road you have basically have to live with the drawbacks and the results.


I have never drained water from any WS I have had on multiple trucks nor seen a WIF light that wasn't in error. Just means the filters absorbed it and did their job. When water drains from the WS filters one is already well on the way to a screwed CR fuel system, all it really is validation you will be spending $$.

 

[e8888]

LMAO :-laf "It's dated information" you have to be kidding me right?!?! That is the installation instructions for the AirDog, from their website. Ok no, you don't technically have to remove the stock fuel canister, but since the AirDog plumbs straight up to the CP3 (again see PDF link) it literally becomes useless.


The 1/4 tank issue is 100%, not a scare tactic formed by AirDog, or FASS. They don't even talk about it, it is from forums like these where people installed their lift pump system by following the instructions and, then ended up with a 1/4 issue. Also "bad install advice" ??? Do you mean "following the given installation instructions"? You should stop talking about this because we have totally different views here and it's not the topic of the discussion. The instructions are 100% laid out in color on their website so it's not installation error, and 1/4 tank issue comes from the suction of the now external lift pump.

I will put the FS100 after the A/D as you suggested.

Agreed multi-pass filtration is necessary, but you should go from low to high. It makes no sense to start with you 2um filter, then go to a 10um filter. You'll clog the 2um with what the 10um should be catching.

Not sure what you mean by "suspect AD" there's nothing suspect about it. I've had the same pump since 2013 and its never let me down EVER. This crap that you added at the end is worthless and wrong. "When it dies they sell you more parts" Makes me believe you don't own an A/D or a FASS (not to mention how you said the 1/4 issues is a scare tactic from the industry, when in fact 1/4 issue was born on forums) AirDog, and FASS have LIFETIME WARRANTIES and YES they do honor them 100% I've never had to use it but a good friend of mine did and they no questions asked sent him a new pump with filters.

Oh god, a Luberfiner filter no way. Like I said I'll do a BF1275 W/S then FF5617, then the FS1000, then the 1R-0750

 

[cerberusiam]

Not kidding and they simply don't tell you what has been learned over the years. No where is it written or inferred that the AD or FASS MUST bypass the OE filter. Most people that don't buy into the nonsense plumb direct form the AD to the
OE filter housing. Mixing up what they tell with what can actually be done. Again, their install only conveys what they want to say not necessarily what is possible or beneficial.

The 1/4 tank issues are chiefly caused by cavitation of the draw straws and the fuel sloshing away from the pickup when the installer cuts it to short cuz they dropped the tank on the floor to do not realizing when installed and full it isn't the same depth. You can limit the cavitation with the bell on the end or even a slant cut but you will not stop it when the fuel get slow and it starts sloshing. Guess what doesn't happen in the canister, fuel uncovering the pickup from sloshing as the canister is always full from the return fuel being dumped in it, cavitation as every single modded canister has a 1" or larger bell on the pickup to address just exactly what they do not tell you in all these install instructions.

Don't know where you think I said anything about putting the finer filter first, clearly said high to low on the solids filtration; ie 20 um ->10 um -> 3 um.


Just don't be surprised if you have warranty issues with AD, has been a an ongoing issue for a LOT of people since the technology was sold. All you have to do is research a little and find the problems people reported and are having.

That FS5617 is fine except it is only 60 GPM filter. Remember, you were the one worrying about the GPH. Likely you will never see an issue it as long as it is changed frequently. Your choice, I just matched up what I knew would work for the design you wanted.

 

[e8888]

Sure you can install something however you want or see fit, but you said that people were installing it wrong. At least now you agree 1/4 issues are real and it happens to most people that install an A/D or FASS. The instructions don't tell you to modify the draw straw at all, A/D supplies you with a high flow 1/2" straw and tells you to cut it 1/8" from the bottom. I actually think that's new because my A/D didn't come with that, so maybe the industry is catching up and fixing the 1/4 issue right from installation.

But my question still hasn't even been answered, you've been arguing with me over senseless crap. I am worried about GPH yes, so if the FF5617 is only 60 GPH at 10um and the P551313 is 90 GPH at 2um would I be better off running the P551313 on my A/D? and then into an FS1000, then into a 1R? Or would the 2um at 90GPH cause more restriction than a 10um at 60GPH?

 

[cerberusiam]

You miss the point, 1/4 tank issues don't exist as real problem. It is just a miss placed description for the results of a botched install. Yes, a LOT of people install them wrong and end up with a myriad of issues. The draw straw instructions are probably THE worst offender of all. Once you have to FIX one those very fine installs lauded by the instructions that doesn't work correctly, then you would see what I mean.


Ideally you would put the coarser filters closest to the pressure source and the finer filters in steps to the end. That will give the best flow and pressure drop across the system while easing the load on the pump. Will it make a difference you see or feel, doubtful. Considering 75% of the fuel delivered to the HPCR system will be returned to the tank in over 95% of normal driving, highly doubtful you could quantify it. There is no info on restriction versus flow because it varies with fuel quality, fuel temp, time, filter media, and filter size. Even with the 60 GPG filters from end to end you would likely never see\feel an issue in normal driving. The only real guide is as I suggested; coarser to finer starting at the pressure source.

 

[e8888]

I was really just looking for some info on filters that fit the A/D, and if I should continue to run with my 1R. But since I've spent most of my time going back and forth with you about something that not only was my post not even about but frankly doesn't even pertain to me, I will have to do some trial and error on my own.

I'm going to continue to run the BF1275 W/S on the A/D, and I'll try out the P551313 on the A/D, then the FS1000 after the A/D, and continue to use the 1R-0750. If I don't get too bad of pressure drops, then I know it's a good combination, if it doesn't work out I'll switch the P551313 out for the FF5617 and see how that works.

 

[sojoe]

cereb as usual you are right on, when you write I do listen/make that read.
"you can lead a horse to water but you can`t make him drink.".

 

[e8888]

cereb as usual you are right on, when you write I do listen/make that read.
"you can lead a horse to water but you can`t make him drink.".

Never said he was wrong. I simply have asked for explanations. In the end, we have agreed upon everything that he mainly posted, just when he initially posted he said things like "the instructions are wrong and outdated" when in fact the instructions I provided were right from the horse's mouth, and they are correct for plumbing that fuel system. He then stated that the 1/4 tank issue wasn't a "real" issue and is due to bad installation. He much later than posted the explanation of this, which I agreed upon. My argument was the fact that it sounded like he was denying it was ever happening.

Onto the real point here though, I have continually asked for help on choosing a fuel filter, with specs to back up. Also asking if I should keep my 1R or get rid of it, never got that answered, and only got facts about a W/S. He told me to add TWO more W/S which would equal three total. I can see adding one, and I agree, but I don't think three is necessary. On top of all of that the LFF9594 that he told me to put on that A/D in the secondary spot DOESN'T EVEN FIT!! that filter is 3/4-16 and the A/D is 7/8-14.

So he continually wanted to argue about arbitrary crap that we didn't agree on, or even disagree, just had different views about. Then only gave out specs on one filter and told me to put it in a position it wouldn't fit in, and finally he never actually got around to helping me with my question. The only thing I got from all of this was to install the FS1000 after my A/D.

 

[e8888]

I have actually seen him post here and I think other forums, and he's been a great help. Not only to the OP but to me as well, I think I've even had interaction with him prior to this, and he was helpful when I asked him questions before.

 

[e8888]

Well, no one was able to help on here but I got some help from AH64ID on mopar1973man.com

The filter set up I'll be running is

BF1212-BF1275-P551312-FF5817.

So that's a filter head with BF1212 W/S to the A/D with a BF1275 W/S & P551312 F/F, and finally ditching my CAT 1R for a FF5817.

If anyone has any questions about flow, micron, or absolute ratings let me know.