Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) NV-5600 lube, bad

[Texas Diesel]

Drained the PTO filter and attached is a picture on the inside. There is brass (normal) and what appears to be jellied MTX lube, it looks like brown gelatin.



I have a fully synthetic gear lube to try out. It is fully compatable with synchros.



I will put the synthetic stuff in and we'll see what happens.



phosphorus statement incorrect and edited out

 

[Riflesmith]

Someone must have forgot to tell my NV-5600 about the harmful effects of using Amsoil 5W-30HDD as its life blood. I have been running this as my lubricant for 40,000 miles now. Shifted better than stock right off the bat and just keeps getting better and better. I have had this oil analyzed and very little of the two elements found in brass were found. Copper was very low. Zinc was the same as the virgin product.



I thought I read somewhere that the synchronizers in the NV-5600 did not contain brass. Perhaps someone can shed some light on this.



TDR member Yogi Bear has used Amsoil 5W-30HDD for well in excess of 100,000 miles without difficulty. Perhaps he will post his observations.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Go in peace my son, your syncros are blessed indeed.

 

[TPlasek]

What makes the brass synchro rings of today any different then the rings in past transmissions, for example the transmissions built before synthetics oil like Castrol Syntorq was available???



I have had many standard transmission in many different cars. They have come from the factory with everything from 90W to Automatic Transmission Fluid(What genius thought that one up ) to whatever castrol syntorq is.



I am in the process of rebuilding my NV4500 at 92k because of a bearing failure. Actually all the bearings look pretty bad. I can only assume that since I know the history of the truck, no more then 6k lbs about 30% of it's life, that the gear fluid from the factory, must not be adequate. In response to a lack of lubrication, the oil turned and awful shade of brown, thickened, and my bearings went out.



WHAT MAKES THIS TRANSMISSION SO SPECIAL THAT IT REQUIRES $25/ QUART LUBE TO MAKE IT RUN??? On the inside, it looks just like my NP465 that I have in my jeep with an extra gear. Both have brass synchros, and both look about the same size and strength. Why can I put five dollars of Costal 75W 90 in that transmission for 90k miles and not have a problem, but my $25 per quart transmission will not even make it to 100k???



On the back of the $25 bottle of snake oil it says "This unique synthetic transmission fluid is formulated for the NV-4500 5-speed wide ratio transmission. Maintains proper shift quality in cold temperatures. Do not use in other manual transmission unless specified" I live in Houston, it never gets cold here. What do I care about cold temperature shift quality. I need the one that says it maintains shift quality and bearing longevity at high temps. I can also only guess that it is not good enough for other transmissions thus that disclaimer.



I hope that some "oil engineer" or someone who really knows transmissions can chime in here and tell me why I have to use syntorq other then saying, "that is what it calls for for warranty issues(note my milage). I have heard about the brass synchros, but I can ussure you the brass synchros in my other manual transmissions are just fine with the cheap stuff.



In my transmission, this oil was not good enough and I am looking for something better.

 

[Texas Diesel]

WHAT MAKES THIS TRANSMISSION SO SPECIAL THAT IT REQUIRES $25/ QUART LUBE TO MAKE IT RUN???



Good question! I remember the good old days when you just added 90W oil and the transmission would outlast the vehicle.



If you are interested in the stuff I found, send an email to -- email address removed -- , put syncromax in the subject line and I'll send you the file. Be patient, I am getting large numbers of requests from another thread I started on it.



That was the factory fill in my 5600 and it only had 21,000 miles plus I have a FastCooler on it too

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

TD - if those shiny yeller chunks seen in yer photo are what yer calling "normal" brass - then I'd hate to see "bad" brass!



Those are WAY too many, and too coarse to be anywhere NEAR normal - I usually expect to see enough extremely FINE brass particles suspended in drained transmission oil to create a brassy "sheen" - but NOT pieces like seem to be in yours...



No doubt about it, I *gotta* drain and refill my transmission before winter hits - I just hope I can find a reasonable substitute - even the FACTORY stuff seems inadequate!

 

[Texas Diesel]

Eat crow? Oooooops, I was just corrected on the phosphorus statement, I retract it.



Sorry about that.

 

[Texas Diesel]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

TD - if those shiny yeller chunks seen in yer photo are what yer calling "normal" brass - then I'd hate to see "bad" brass!



Those are WAY too many, and too coarse to be anywhere NEAR normal - I usually expect to see enough extremely FINE brass particles suspended in drained transmission oil to create a brassy "sheen" - but NOT pieces like seem to be in yours...



No doubt about it, I *gotta* drain and refill my transmission before winter hits - I just hope I can find a reasonable substitute - even the FACTORY stuff seems inadequate!

I am really zoomed in there, they are tiny at normal magnification.

 

[TPlasek]

That was also your first fill. In my past experiences, the syncros always seemed to wear a bit when the first seat. I usually change the transmission oil after a 3000 miles when I have put in new synchros. There is always brass during the first oil change. It slows way down after that change.



I wanted to do the same with my 4500, but at $100, I am thinking of putting cheap stuff in for 3k, then the "good" stuff (I am still investigating on what that will be).

 

[redram]

Tplasek



The NV4500 will work fine on a 75W90 GL4 or GL4/GL5 rated oil. I have 142K on my NV4500 using a product called MaxGear 75W90 from Royal Purple. A friend of mine in Idaho has a 96 4X4 with over 300K+ on the NV4500 using RP maxGear 75W90.



RP is located NE of Houston and might be one to consider. Price is less than 9/Qt.

The Mopar factory stuff is available in GM bottling for about 13 / qt (NV4500's also are used in Chevy / GM PU's).



The difference between the NV45000 and NV5600 is in the contact geometry of either the synchro to gear hubs probably in the overdrive gears. The ZF in the Fords specify an ATF because the synchro to gear hub is a flat face as compared to the beveled face on the NV4500. If you get the incorrect fluid type the synchronizer may have difficulty spinning up the next gear hub for smooth engagement.



In the NV5600, RP recommends their Synchromax product.

 

[TPlasek]

Redram,



Are you saying the Castrol fluid is strictly designed for shift quality and not for longevity. If I were to use some cheap cheap gear lube would the shift quality be bad???



I have located Royal Purple at Napa Store down the street for $12/quart. I will give it a try.



I am still under the assumption that the Syntorq is a cold weather oil. The thin oil must work well when the transmission is cold. Lucky for me, it doesn't get cold in Houston.

 

[DHawthorne]

I use to put Slow Turtle **** (STP) in my Superbee to make the 4 speed shift alot better. The six speed in my truck shifts very similiar to that one. Hesitates just a little before going in. The STP cured that.

Going to change out the Gear oil at 100k.

Not sure want I going back with yet.



Dave

 

[w-cummins]

Originally posted by TPlasek

What makes the brass synchro rings of today any different then the rings in past transmissions, for example the transmissions built before synthetics oil like Castrol Syntorq was available???

Well when you get the rings out of the trany, you will see why they are diffrent , they aren't just brass anymore. They are lined with a friction materal and that's what needs the spendy oil



I would put the recomended type oil back in it

 

[redram]

Originally posted by TPlasek

Redram,



Are you saying the Castrol fluid is strictly designed for shift quality and not for longevity. If I were to use some cheap cheap gear lube would the shift quality be bad???



I have located Royal Purple at Napa Store down the street for $12/quart. I will give it a try.



I am still under the assumption that the Syntorq is a cold weather oil. The thin oil must work well when the transmission is cold. Lucky for me, it doesn't get cold in Houston.

That's a question for Castrol and New Venture.

From my background and knowledge of lubrication, I would assume that the Syntorq was intended to improve high and low temperature performance as well as provide shift quality, wear resistance, and corrosion protection all while not foaming.



But it is not the only oil that will do all of these and was chosen due to Castrol having a big presence with the Big Three Automotive manufacturer's as an OEM factory fill supplier.

Castrol is owned by the second largest oil company in the world (BP)





What NV and DC are doing is violating the Fair Trade Act in my opinion. They do not provide alternatives and put that silly decal on the PTO cover "Cautioning the PTO Installer" that if they use a different lubricant, it could cause damage and void the warranty. Well, by my interpretation, that means that the Syntorq is the "ONLY" lubricant that would work in these NV4500 and that is just not true. If it was, Castrol would have been granted an "Exclusion" from the government as having a unique product where nothing else they had tried / evaluated would allow the transmission to function correctly. If it was the only lubricant that would work in the transmission, by law, DC should have to supply it free of charge for the length of the warranty... in this case either 5 yrs /100,000 or 7 years / 100,000 depending on when you purchased your truck.



If you've done any research on the TDR, you already know that endusers have tried many different products with excellent results, form Royal Purple, LE, Amsoil, Schaeffers, Konklin, Hydrotex, TRC, Redline, Neo, and a host of major branded products... . so how much "testing" do you think NV did with the Syntorq oil or was Castrol the only supplier contacted NV and it came down to price?

 

[yogibear]

My 96 NV4500 ran 300K with Amsoil 75-90, no problems but the 5th gr. nut, came off twice, ran the last 100K with it spot welded on.

All but 29K of the 193K on my 00 NV5600 was with Amsoil series 3000 5w30, and no problems. Will use it in my 03 NV5600 when it gets changed.

Larry