NV5600 transmission Oil

[rbattelle]

( FYI - friction modifier reduces friction)

I'm not so sure of that. Can you cite some reference that discusses this?



Ryan

 

[Cattletrkr]

They told me it was a fluid made by Texaco.

Yep. My '01 had a sticker right on the transmission listing the Texaco #... something like 1874 or somehting like that. I couldn't find any info on it anywhere so I ended up order a synthetic manual transmission fluid from the mobile guy... a straight 50 weight. Ran that for about 30-35K before I sold the truck. Didn't find out until I was ready to change the fluid in the then new '04. 5 that I "shouldn't" have been running it. Shifted fine and didn't make any odd noises or anything. I still have over 3 gallons of it here that I'm now afraid to use.

Now I use the Amsoil MTF.

 

[amsoilman]

I used Blackstone to determine the oil had sheared, so yes, I have a UOA to back up my statements (to keep the Amsoil crowd from flaming me). I installed the Amsoil/Fast Coolers in October, right before my trip to Key West (with the slide in). The oil had one trip to New Mexico also. Roughly 10k later, I noticed the shifting was going downhill.



So I pulled a sample and, while everything looked good as far as wear, the oil had sheared some... and that is what I was told was causing my shifting to deteriorate.

steved

Steve,

I thought when I read your report from Blackstone on your Amsoil MTF it came back in excellent shape, as they reported wear was very low (Iron was 12, and universal averages for Iron is 88), and they were not sure why you needed to change the oil to make it shift smoother. The Viscosity was 54. 2 SUS@210 F*, which is perfect.



They reported, "There was a "trace" of insolubles, but was not a problem. "



As I recall they said the "universal Averages" were based on 19,700 miles, and yours only had 10,143 miles.

 

[steved]

Steve,
I thought when I read your report from Blackstone on your Amsoil MTF it came back in excellent shape, as they reported wear was very low (Iron was 12, and universal averages for Iron is 88), and they were not sure why you needed to change the oil to make it shift smoother. The Viscosity was 54. 2 SUS@210 F*, which is perfect.

They reported, "There was a "trace" of insolubles, but was not a problem. "

As I recall they said the "universal Averages" were based on 19,700 miles, and yours only had 10,143 miles.

And if you read further, the viscosity had changed from what a virgin sample of MTF should be. IIRC, the group at BITOG indicated it had thinned down to around the consistancy of RP Synchromax (for camparison only)... and my transmission didn't like RP Synchromax. Therefore, with the information I had, the consensus was MY nv5600 doesn't like thinner fluids and there was NO explaination why my fluid had sheared (coming from SEVERAL amsoil dealers).

I made no mention of high wear metals, did I???? I said it had sheared. Please do not try to twist things around. IF you want to answer my shearing question, please do. But low wear metals mean nothing to me if the transmission won't shift... no matter how "great" the fluid is claimed to be.

steved

 

[Chief USA]

Question,



I changed the oil in the transmission about 6 months ago (about 9K on this oil change) with Pennzoil Synchromesh isn't that the correct oil to use? My I have 42K on my truck and when the truck is cold it will grind going into 3rd. My dealer (not by choice, I have to go there because of my ext. warranty company) says the only other oil to use is some castrol transmission oil.

I take very good care of my trucks, so I feel they are jerking me around.

The dealer says if it does become a problem they might not cover it because of the oil I used.



thanks, Andre

To answer your question... ... ... YES. Pennzoil Synchromesh is the correct lubricant for the NV5600 that meets DC & NV specifications. Any other lubricant that meets these specifications is also suitable.



Originally Texaco manufactured the trans fluid for DC under their part # 1874 MTX. Texaco was bought in part by Shell. Pennzoil is a subsidiary of Shell and this fluid is now manufactured under the brand name of Pennzoil Synchromesh. Basically the same stuff in a new wrapper.



Below is the poop on Pennzoil Synchromesh



http://www.pennzoil.com/products/gear_oil/syncro_fluid.html



If the fluid you want to use specifies that it is rated to meet the MS 9224 specification; you can use it and it meets DC warranty requirements.

 

[amsoilman]

And if you read further, the viscosity had changed from what a virgin sample of MTF should be. IIRC, the group at BITOG indicated it had thinned down to around the consistancy of RP Synchromax (for camparison only)... and my transmission didn't like RP Synchromax. Therefore, with the information I had, the consensus was MY nv5600 doesn't like thinner fluids and there was NO explaination why my fluid had sheared (coming from SEVERAL amsoil dealers).



I made no mention of high wear metals, did I???? I said it had sheared. Please do not try to twist things around. IF you want to answer my shearing question, please do. But low wear metals mean nothing to me if the transmission won't shift... no matter how "great" the fluid is claimed to be.



steved

Steve,

With due respect to you and BITOG, when oil "shears" it means permanent viscosity loss, and will never return to what it once was. The report I read said the Viscosity was 54. 2 SUS@210F*, which converts to 9 cSt@210C*. Here is a link to convert:

http://63.111.59.207/Uniqema_Compressorinternet/ProdCat/ProductSearch/Cst_to_Sus_Converter.html



The Amsoil MTF out of the bottle has a Viscosity of 9. 6 cSt@100C*, which meets the Manufacturers specs.



The Chrysler specification is MS 9224 & 9417 (Synchromesh fluid) and the min oil viscosity is 8. 0 cSt when new. The min viscosity after shear is 6. 0.



The AMSOIL MTF is 9. 6 cSt@100C*, which is well within the parameters listed by the mfg for the application. Although this fluid is listed as a 5W-30 it is not a motor oil and does not follow the same viscosity requirements. What I mean by this is that Chrysler & GM wanted a specific viscosity which fell between a 20 and 30 grade combined with the cold temperature properties which is why it meets the 5W rating.



My NV-5600 was getting a bit harder to shift as well, and it turnd out to be the "pilot" bearing for the clutch, as it was binding and allowing the transmission input shaft to turn, making it difficult to shift. Since your truck has more than 100,000 miles, you may be experiencing this same thing.



Hope you get to the bottom of your problem.



Wayne

amsoilman

 

[steved]

Steve,

With due respect to you and BITOG, when oil "shears" it means permanent viscosity loss, and will never return to what it once was. The report I read said the Viscosity was 54. 2 SUS@210F*, which converts to 9 cSt@210C*. Here is a link to convert:

http://63.111.59.207/Uniqema_Compressorinternet/ProdCat/ProductSearch/Cst_to_Sus_Converter.html



The Amsoil MTF out of the bottle has a Viscosity of 9. 6 cSt@100C*, which meets the Manufacturers specs.



The Chrysler specification is MS 9224 & 9417 (Synchromesh fluid) and the min oil viscosity is 8. 0 cSt when new. The min viscosity after shear is 6. 0.



The AMSOIL MTF is 9. 6 cSt@100C*, which is well within the parameters listed by the mfg for the application. Although this fluid is listed as a 5W-30 it is not a motor oil and does not follow the same viscosity requirements. What I mean by this is that Chrysler & GM wanted a specific viscosity which fell between a 20 and 30 grade combined with the cold temperature properties which is why it meets the 5W rating.



My NV-5600 was getting a bit harder to shift as well, and it turnd out to be the "pilot" bearing for the clutch, as it was binding and allowing the transmission input shaft to turn, making it difficult to shift. Since your truck has more than 100,000 miles, you may be experiencing this same thing.



Hope you get to the bottom of your problem.



Wayne

amsoilman

I retract all my statements... I am tired of defending every statement I make regarding Amsoil... you won again Wayne.



I will not be posting information on my NV5600 again.



steved

 

[steved]

Steve,

The report I read said the Viscosity was 54. 2 SUS@210F*, which converts to 9 cSt@210C*.



The Amsoil MTF out of the bottle has a Viscosity of 9. 6 cSt@100C*, which meets the Manufacturers specs.



The Chrysler specification is MS 9224 & 9417 (Synchromesh fluid) and the min oil viscosity is 8. 0 cSt when new. The min viscosity after shear is 6. 0.

This is the last thing I will ever post about oil and oil filters, maybe the last information I post period. I was noticing a decline in shifting quality right before I submitted this UOA. I was at my wits end and was hoping a UOA of the fluid my shed some insight on the cause of the decline in shift quality... why a simple fluid change would completely change the shifting characteristics back to "like new". This was not some random shot in the dark, it had purpose.





This is a direct quote from an Amsoil "dealer" at BITOG regarding MY UOA of the Amsoil MTF:



"Wear metals are nothing. Oil did thin a bit, from 9. 6 to 8. 5 - this may be why your shifting isn't as smooth any more. I say, use 1 qt of MTG next time. Bump the starting viscosity up near 11 cSt @ 100°C or so. "





And while everyone has an opinion... this is MINE. As we can more or less conclude from several other NV5600 threads, every NV5600 is different. Every one has its own quirks; whether shifting quality, noise, operating temperature, or the fluid that works best for you.



In MY particular case; I concluded, based on the UOA, that the Amsoil MTF had sheared in 10k miles to a viscosity that, while still in the "range", was causing UNACCEPTABLE shifting characteristics in MY particular NV5600. I can bolster this claim because in my MANY oil changes, Royal Purple Synchromax was one of the choices of oil I made (it is also one of the thinnest snychromesh oils available). In MY NV5600, the RP was the worst performer based on shifting characteristics even when new; and again, it is a thinner oil.



Based on these "recommendations", I am currently running a blend of 25% Redline MT-90 and 75% Redline MTL. MY results are a much better shifting trans and slightly less operating temperatures than the Amsoil MTF (around 30*F less, 190*F Amsoil MTF new oil to 160*F Redline Blend new oil... same operating conditions). Shifting characteristics are seemingly better than MTL alone... and may warrant a 50/50 mix of MTL/MT-90 in the future.



So based on these results, I can only conclude the "bit" of shearing of the fluid caused MY decrease in shifting quality. And further that MY NV5600 likes a thicker fluid and one that doesn't shear as quick (10k is almost no miles for me).



Disclaimer: Your results may vary and take this for what it's worth (which probably isn't much based on some comments I received, I'm wrong about everything).



Now I'm done.



steved

 

[WPeschel]

Well I have had no problem with the factory oil that has not been changed ever..... 120,000 miles... . Shifts great and I rip on it pretty hard...

 

[PAckley]

I just installed a new (rebuilt) NV5600 from Standard Transmission of FT. Worth.

Tow 10,000# race trailer, temps creep steadily to 230-240 in 80* ambient temp.

Fastcoolers installed do not seem to help the temp creep, although when stopped for refueling, etc, temp drops faster.

Amsoil Synchromesh 5w-30 says outstanding protection from -40 to 300 degrees, so oil should protect at these temps. Temps were lower with old trans before bearings were going. Used Dodge fluid. Overfill is recommended.

I just do not like the high temps I am seeing. I may change fluids to see if there is a difference, although I am within range of Amsoil protection range. Temps are the key here as they measure "work" on the transmission!

 

[GMueller]

I switched to Redline MTL (no special mix) and my NV5600 shifts real smooth. Also, I added the transmission filter that Genos' sells to the PTO.

Seems to help trap metallic particles from the transmission.



Gary