nv5600 unable to shift to 1st and reverse after clutch kit install

[JOlatt]

Hi,

I had the clutch kit replaced on my 2004.5 stock 5.9 cummins 2wd with NV5600 replaced today. I replaced it with a Luk that I purchased from RockAuto. Now, with the truck idling, I'm unable to shift to 1st gear or reverse gear. The installer thinks it is an issue with the Luk pressure plate and that I should complain to RockAuto. Before I do that I wanted to post the issue here and see if someone can provide some insight.

A couple of observations that I've made are as follows:
- With the truck turned off, I am able to shift to 1st and reverse gear without any issues
- Shifting through all the other gears (2-6) are smooth. The clutch release is smooth.

I have a guess as to what the problem could be. The videos that I watched on youtube directed one to put some grease on the input shaft spline. I suspect that this is to allow the clutch plate to slide away from the flywheel more easily when the clutch pedal is pressed in. The installer may have forgotten that step. My suspicion is that the new clutch plate is still slightly touching the flywheel and turning the transmission thus causing my issue.

Any ideas of what the problem could be and what I can possibly do to remediate it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.


Truck details: 2004.5 Dodge Ram 2500, 2wd, NV5600, 187,500 miles, stock except replacement of original injectors with remanufactured ones from Geno's (appears to have increased horsepower as I lost around 4-5 mpg after replacement).

 

[GCroyle]

Your only real possible EXTERNAL fix is that the hydraulics are not up to snuff. If you are handy several possible tests. My this defines the condition test for the hydro's is to remove the slave cyl, remove the push rod and boot no the piston will not come flying out unless someone pushes on the pedal. Now attach a steering wheel puller across the face of the cyl loosely, now turn the screw in until it touches the piston, then another 1/2" or so. Snug steering wheel puller bolts finger tight and secure to frame so its not hanging.

And the STOCK system in it's fully bled air free state is more than capable of releasing the stock clutch. And not they don't have bleed screws you use a push back technique on the SC with the system off of the truck and MC pointed push rod pointed down about 45 deg to push air bubbles out the reservoir. Any burping technique that leaves the MC horizontal with stock hydros is a waste of time.

Evaluation is to MEASURE how far the MC push rod travels with two finger tip pressure push on pedal. You're looking for an air bubble. The air bubble gets compressed first, then you start making hyd pressure. That dead travel is often the difference between release no release.

OK, now the nasty.

You purchased parts from A handed them to B and now the finger pointing begins. You put yourself in the position of general contractor for the repair.

The grease on the spline keeps corrosion from building up and making shifting hard as you note but if the shop "forgot" that and I bet LuK put a grease tube in the kit then what other details did B forget? Like really cleaning the splines from all of the old crud. Can't forget the little pilot bearing if it got damaged during trans install, same issue is possible. No mention of FW R&R or resurfacing.

Gary

 

[GCroyle]

Forgot to include measurement specs.

Stock NV5600 hydros 1/8” or less good greater than that not good. Two finger push with slv cyl blocked.

 

[EricViviano]

This is odd. Does 1st just sit there and grind when you try to go into gear? But 2nd goes in fine and clutch engagement is smooth?

 

[JOlatt]

GCroyle,

Your response is greatly appreciated.

I did ask the shop about possible air in the clutch master/slave (MC/SC) system. They said that couldn't have happened as they just removed the transmission and set it aside. Can doing what they did introduce air into the clutch master/slave system?

Also, if there is air in the MC/SC system, would it not cause shifting of gears from 2-6 be hard?

This morning, I started hearing some whining noises coming from the transmission area. If as you said, the pilot bearing was damaged during the install, could that cause this kind of noise?

A new flywheel, new pilot bearing and throw-out bearing was installed as part of work. I have the old flywheel, pilot bearing, pressure plate and throw-out bearing with me.

You are right. I did put myself in the position of a general contractor. I did not want to go with the Valeo clutch kit that the shop was going to go with. And, I was not in a position to do the replacement in my garage. Did not feel that this job could be done by lying on my back.

Thank you for taking the time to help me.

Your only real possible EXTERNAL fix is that the hydraulics are not up to snuff. If you are handy several possible tests. My this defines the condition test for the hydro's is to remove the slave cyl, remove the push rod and boot no the piston will not come flying out unless someone pushes on the pedal. Now attach a steering wheel puller across the face of the cyl loosely, now turn the screw in until it touches the piston, then another 1/2" or so. Snug steering wheel puller bolts finger tight and secure to frame so its not hanging.

And the STOCK system in it's fully bled air free state is more than capable of releasing the stock clutch. And not they don't have bleed screws you use a push back technique on the SC with the system off of the truck and MC pointed push rod pointed down about 45 deg to push air bubbles out the reservoir. Any burping technique that leaves the MC horizontal with stock hydros is a waste of time.

Evaluation is to MEASURE how far the MC push rod travels with two finger tip pressure push on pedal. You're looking for an air bubble. The air bubble gets compressed first, then you start making hyd pressure. That dead travel is often the difference between release no release.

OK, now the nasty.

You purchased parts from A handed them to B and now the finger pointing begins. You put yourself in the position of general contractor for the repair.

The grease on the spline keeps corrosion from building up and making shifting hard as you note but if the shop "forgot" that and I bet LuK put a grease tube in the kit then what other details did B forget? Like really cleaning the splines from all of the old crud. Can't forget the little pilot bearing if it got damaged during trans install, same issue is possible. No mention of FW R&R or resurfacing.

Gary

 

[JOlatt]

This is odd. Does 1st just sit there and grind when you try to go into gear? But 2nd goes in fine and clutch engagement is smooth?

EricViviano, Thank you for your responding.

Attempting to push the shifter into 1st gear or reverse, while the engine is idling, is simply stopped/blocked by something. There is no grinding. If I turn the engine off, then I am able to shift into all gears (1st and reverse, included).

This morning I started hearing a type of whine noise from the transmission area. If I put the transmission in neutral and coast, the sound stops.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to help me.

 

[EricViviano]

@JOlatt - No problem sir. Unfortunately, there is something not right with the clutch install. Your going to have to take it back apart. When you say it's physically won't go into 1st with the engine running that is very odd, especially with no grinding. It seems like one or more of the pieces that where installed where incorrect for your truck, or something to that affect.

The only thing even remotely similar I have experienced was on a Ford ZF5 years ago, the wrong pressure plate was installed. It bolted up and looked right to the eye but when you went to engage the internal slave cyl it would blow, leaking brake fluid everywhere. Took several transmissions R&R's and slave cyl before we realized it was incorrect clutch for that application.

 

[GCroyle]

Like I mentioned your only external solution is the hydros as I detailed including a test procedure. That test is easy pulling trans ain’t.

clutch pedal up, truck stationary, trans in N pilot cannot make noise.

 

[Ozymandias]

You say not in First, but can you shift into Second with the truck idling on the lot?

 

[KParsons]

did you have the flywheel cut smooth? it is a must do.

 

[mfurrh55]

Had same problem on my 01, was hydraulics, new hydraulics fixed the problem, Monte

 

[EricViviano]

If the hydraulics worked fine before I would doubt that is the issue, but you never know. Even when going from DMF to SMF setup on stock worn hydros you can still get the clutch to disengage, sometimes the pedal is clear on the floor board, from my experience.

 

[mfurrh55]

My hydraulics worked fine, then one day it was hard to get into first or reverse, it got worse, before I fixed problem by replacing the hydraulics, bought some aftermarket unit and it still didn't work right until I bought OE set.

 

[GCroyle]

GCroyle,

Your response is greatly appreciated.

I did ask the shop about possible air in the clutch master/slave (MC/SC) system. They said that couldn't have happened as they just removed the transmission and set it aside. Can doing what they did introduce air into the clutch master/slave system?

Also, if there is air in the MC/SC system, would it not cause shifting of gears from 2-6 be hard?

This is a question that has puzzled me. Why not TEST the hydro's and be done with the question?

This is not a finger pointing issue, its a diagnostic test to determine IF something happened during R&R. Yes, just removing and replacing can cause an air bubble to get in. The area in front of the piston that is not normally in the stroke range of the SLV CYL now has the piston moving farther out than its normal range, it (the seal) can go thru the crud in that area and possibly allow air into the system.

A system with a small air bubble will create pressure but it will not push the bearing as far as its designed and the clutch doesn't release.

2-6 shifting is a different issue, the gears are already turning and its less sensitive to those pesky air bubbles.

I've spent 39 years in the clutch aftermarket and finally retired but I've taken bunches of clutch hydro tech calls and this concept of testing hydro's when possible is a miss-understood topic like not too many others.

 

[mfurrh55]

To clarify mine not working on my 01 was about a week after replacing my clutch too, Monte

 

[GCroyle]

JOlatt,

Any conclusion or fix to your post?

Gary

 

[JOlatt]

JOlatt,

Any conclusion or fix to your post?

Gary

Hi Gary,

The clutch hydraulics are 15 years old. I've got a new clutch master/slave system on order. I hope to install it this weekend. Will update once I replace.

FYI, I took it to another shop and they were the ones that suggested the replacement of the hydraulics kit. Unfortunately, I couldn't get an appointment with them. Hence, going to DIY.

Thank you.

 

[petersonj]

You say not in First, but can you shift into Second with the truck idling on the lot?

@JOlatt, this question needs to be answered. With your truck stationary and engine idling, I am understanding that you cannot shift into first gear. Can you shift into any other gear under the SAME circumstances? This question is being asked because if you can select other gears relatively easily with the truck stationary and engine idling, then there is not a problem with the hydraulic circuit.

In general, first gear and reverse gear will always be the hardest to shift into because of the torque multiplication generated by the gearing itself. When a new clutch is installed with old hydraulics, there can be a period of time where additional drag of the new components can slow the time it takes for the input shaft and counter shaft to come to a stop when the clutch pedal is depressed. The minor additional drag generated by the new clutch disc and pressure before it has had a chance to wear in can cause difficulty in shifting into first gear or reverse gear. After some stop and go driving for a few days, these symptoms may disappear. If this is your case, then all is normal.

My truck is an '02 with the NV5600 and I replaced the original clutch at 297,000 miles with a stock LUK clutch. I used the original hydraulics and I had very similar symptoms that you have mentioned. I thought I would have to replace the hydraulic circuit even though it tested out fine. Instead, I continued driving the truck for a few weeks (I live in the country) and the symptoms slowly disappeared as the clutch wore in. Now the clutch pedal engages in the same manner that the old clutch did and all is well at 325,000 miles.

- John

 

[JOlatt]

@JOlatt, this question needs to be answered. With your truck stationary and engine idling, I am understanding that you cannot shift into first gear. Can you shift into any other gear under the SAME circumstances? This question is being asked because if you can select other gears relatively easily with the truck stationary and engine idling, then there is not a problem with the hydraulic circuit.

In general, first gear and reverse gear will always be the hardest to shift into because of the torque multiplication generated by the gearing itself. When a new clutch is installed with old hydraulics, there can be a period of time where additional drag of the new components can slow the time it takes for the input shaft and counter shaft to come to a stop when the clutch pedal is depressed. The minor additional drag generated by the new clutch disc and pressure before it has had a chance to wear in can cause difficulty in shifting into first gear or reverse gear. After some stop and go driving for a few days, these symptoms may disappear. If this is your case, then all is normal.

My truck is an '02 with the NV5600 and I replaced the original clutch at 297,000 miles with a stock LUK clutch. I used the original hydraulics and I had very similar symptoms that you have mentioned. I thought I would have to replace the hydraulic circuit even though it tested out fine. Instead, I continued driving the truck for a few weeks (I live in the country) and the symptoms slowly disappeared as the clutch wore in. Now the clutch pedal engages in the same manner that the old clutch did and all is well at 325,000 miles.

- John

Hi John,

Even though I had mentioned that shifting through gears 2nd through 6th was smooth in my first post, that is no longer true. Shifting into 2nd from standstill is hard most of the time. At standstill, with engine idling, if I pump the clutch many times, I am able to shift to 1st and Reverse.

Thank you for your note.

 

[KParsons]

is it possible the new flywheel is not flat?