Off Road diesel

[DocDetonancour]

I guess it depends where you live. All the farmers and farmer wanna-bees run the cheap stuff in Idaho and I have never heard of anyone even being checked, let alone fined. These trucks run forever with very little maintainence in Spud Land.

 

[McCRam]

I wouldn't think of running red in my truck. I think the fine is 500 the first time and 10,000 the second time here in MT. Yet I don't here the Irs complaining about all the On road gas I burn off road in the trucks and four wheelers we have that don't have tags.

 

[MD500E]

On road/off road from what I understand is pretty much the same. A friend of mine who has driven tanker trucks for the last 15 years told me he used to have to add the red dye himself at the refinery when he picked up a load of diesel that was to be used for off road. He said that was some nasty dye and constantly had it all over him! He did mention that with the correct lubrication additive you can run jet fuel which I belive is about the same a #1 fuel oil or kerosene Jet fuel just so happens to be clear, but it lacks the lubrication for the injection pump.

I have a tank I keep filled with on road diesel. I use it to fill off road equipment but because I also top off my truck I would rather have one less thing in life to worry about!!! In pa the total tax added to on road diesel is about $. 54

 

[shendren]

so why is high sulphur diesel bad for the ctd's? what about the 12v's?

 

[LightmanE300]

Sufur is NOT GOOD, it's NOT a lubricant for the record. The reason everyone thinks sulfur is a lubricant is because when low sulfur diesel fuel was introduced the lubricity of the fuel dropped. This is because the refining process that removes sulfur from the fuel simultaneously strips the lubricity from the fuel. Sulfur is not the lubricant, again. Sulfur is a nasty byproduct that when burned causes most of the soot - which is either seen in the form of smoke or in increased engine oil sooting. There's nothing good about running high sulfur fuel other than high lubricity - which can clearly be added to low sulfur fuel via additives or biodiesel. With that said, off road diesel comes in 2 types - low sulfur and high sulfur. They are both stil available so you have to know what you're getting if you plan on running red.

 

[RChamberlain]

in utah its like a $5,000 fine two much for me and you really shouldn't run it in the psd cuz it will take out the fule pumps that is what I was told

 

[NLamke]

Don't know about the IRS comming to get you, but the DOT and HP sure will. Seems like every time there is hike in diesel prices, I read in the paper of a couple people that get fined for running red dye. They will wait for the price increase, then go sit on the side of the road and pull over any diesel powered rig they want to and check it. I think it's dutch door action myself. Too many @$#%#@#ing taxes!!!

 

[macdaddy]

Sufur is NOT GOOD, it's NOT a lubricant for the record. The reason everyone thinks sulfur is a lubricant is because when low sulfur diesel fuel was introduced the lubricity of the fuel dropped. This is because the refining process that removes sulfur from the fuel simultaneously strips the lubricity from the fuel. Sulfur is not the lubricant, again. Sulfur is a nasty byproduct that when burned causes most of the soot - which is either seen in the form of smoke or in increased engine oil sooting. There's nothing good about running high sulfur fuel other than high lubricity - which can clearly be added to low sulfur fuel via additives or biodiesel. With that said, off road diesel comes in 2 types - low sulfur and high sulfur. They are both stil available so you have to know what you're getting if you plan on running red.

Whew!!!

High sulfur, low sulfur?EPA Diesel is all the same 500 PPM sulfur and a 44 to 48 cetane, at least until Jan of 06 at which time ULSD will be mandated at a Sulfur spec of 15PPM. The refining process you mentioned is called Hydrotreating where as with the use of Nickle Molybdenim and Cobalt catalyst Hydrogen gas, alot of heat and pressure Sulfur is converted to Hydrogen Sulfide gas which gets removed later. So without getting into a complete chemistry sulfur is in fact a lubercant, the higher the conversion the less sulfur which equals less lubricity which we all know was a factor as it pertains to the earlier injector pump O rings. Prior to the RFG mandated in 1995 by the EPA the sulfur spec was 1500 PPM (Ibelieve). You are right when you said that there is nothing good about high sulfur it dirties your oil faster, causes more air born particulates, and damages the environment. Now I have never purchased red dyed diesel all I know is that we only make two types of diesel "EPA" which you run in OH, and living here in Ca we also make "CARB" (Ca Air Resources Board) diesel so I don't know where this "High/Low" spec comes from I can tell you this much it's not from any refinery I know of. As for "CARB"diesel it is produced under much higher pressure which not only removes more Sulfur but Areomatics which also raises the Cetane rating in Ca our diesel "CARB" as a Cetane rating of 55 to 58 which the CTD loves, not in terms of power and economy but provides a much smoother running motor. Also I would't put Jet fuel or Kerosene in my CTD as they don't have the correct Flash spec nor the desired 90% end point.



Mac ConocoPhillips operations Los Angeles

 

[jrobinson2]

The idea that "off road" fuel will somehow damage a highway engine but not a off road engine is just silly. The fuel systems on off highway diesel engines and on highway diesel engines are exactly the same, the idea that off highway fuel is somehow "bad" is just plain wrong. You can not run lower quality fuel in off road engines, John Deere and CaseIH have both been using high pressure common rail systems for years, the first time I drove a Deere with digital engine controls was 1994, about the same time Caterpillar developed the huei system that Navistar/Ford PSD uses and far before GM or Dodge went "high tech", off road equipment is just as advanced and sensitive to low quality fuel as on highway equipment, the off road fuel works fine in pickups. The only issues are TAXES and the associated fines and legal ramifications.



Jared

 

[macdaddy]

jrobinson2

You are exactly right in your thread. The only difference is the taxes. EPA diesel is EPA diesel the dye is the only difference I got with the guys at our terminal today to verify it. Just don't get caught with it in your CTD, and if you have to run it be sure to change the fuel filter after a full tank of the non dyed stuff.

Mac

 

[barbwire]

I dont understand!!!

.

Dan



*****edit*****



The red dye stays in the filter even after the tank of offroad fuel is burned and can be easily seen. That's the second thing they look at after dipping the fuel tank.

If they dipped the tank, and found no red fuel, why would they pull a filter? The only reason I can think of, if they did pull the filter, is if someone had reported the person for useing red fuel. Seems a bit extreme to pull filters though!!!!!!!!

 

[sardoghauler]

hypothetically very curious

Ok, lets say this buddy of mine had just hypothetically had his fuel oil burner die and switched to a natural gas furnace. Now my buddy has a tank full of 250 gallons of fuel oil that isn't being used. Hypothecially, if he had a truck very similar to one in my sig could he pump it into his truck? I mean, reallly, he'd be protecting the environment from a future hydrocarbon spill in the soil. Remember, this is all just a hypothetical situation.



I'll be sure to pass on your thoughts to my buddy.

 

[JMolt]

Here in NE the DOT go to places that have a high number of diesel pick-ups, like farm sales, sale barns, RV shows, and they dip every rig in the parking lot. There are alot of owners pretty mad, because the DOT are not very careful with the paint around the fuel door. Just ram it in,(kind of like rape it).

 

[LightmanE300]

Macdaddy - while you may be right about the sulfur process - which I'm not sure about - you are incorrect about the EPA and off road diesel. Only ON-ROAD diesel is limited to 500ppm, and the EPA law requires a minimum 40 cetane index - not 44-48! Off road diesel DOES come in two levels, high and low sulfur. High sulfur is 5000ppm and low is 500. I took a pic of a high sulfur off road pump about a month ago, they are most definitely around. I've read the BP/Amoco pdf spec sheets, and for example they offer BP Diesel Supreme in both versions - on and off road. There is more difference than just the dy in that particular case. The off road version has a slightly higher average cetane index as well as 5000ppm sulfur limit. .



I"ve heard multiple places that running high sulfur diesel in a catalyst-equipped on road diesel would cause problems. They claim it will ruin the cat and possibly compromise other internals. I can't confirm this either way.

 

[IC Smoke]

Can they test your tank if you have a lock on the cap?

And if you had dyed fuel in your tank then ran regular diesel for quite awhile will it still show? (filter changed too)





Ian

 

[STRALEY]

The way I understand it is they can also do a swab test. Which basically means they can take like a cotton ball and rub your exhaust and then run the tests on it then. I really wouldn't be suprised to see them at truck pulls in the next few years, or any diesel motorsport event. We see them all the time around Columbus, OH and they always have some sort of dump truck pulled over.



Jeremy

 

[Cooker]

Although they sell "high sulfur" off road diesel fuel around here it is the same fuel as on road diesel other than the dye. I have a freind that works at a fuel depot and he has confirmed that it is the same fuel.



This may not be the same for all areas.

 

[CAT 385]

ON the topic of agents coming to sale barns and the such.



These places are private land and the agents can not touch any ones truck while there. I saw it personally when the owner of the sale barn told them to get the heck of his property. They picked up there gear and left, but at another barn, no one ran the agents off and they nailed a couple people for red fuel.



The stuff will not hurt a diesel period. It is diesel nothing more nothing less, I have used ATF to fill up fuel filters on equipment when to diesel was around they run like it was just plain old diesel. Now I do not know how our pumps would like that on our current trucks but on a 12 valve no problems.



On another topic I have seen the tanker drivers pour used motor oil into the supply tanks, and your truck never knows the diffrence. Maybe only 10 to 15 gallons in a 5000 gallon tank but it is still there.

 

[BillGotthelf]

If you were to run red fuel in the high sulfur catagory you would see about a 5% increase in fuel mileage. Also I have seen DOT dip tanks, especially around a large rodeo where the parking lot had more trucks than cars. Somehow after the hurricanes the local Hess stations got red fuel in their diesel pumps. Had to save receipts to prove it was bought legit. Also of them farmers got caught. Its not worth it to save the dollars. Oh buy the way the red dye does not color the fuel filter but it only takes 2 gallons to leave in red tint in the other 34. :-laf

 

[macdaddy]

Macdaddy - while you may be right about the sulfur process - which I'm not sure about - you are incorrect about the EPA and off road diesel. Only ON-ROAD diesel is limited to 500ppm, and the EPA law requires a minimum 40 cetane index - not 44-48! Off road diesel DOES come in two levels, high and low sulfur. High sulfur is 5000ppm and low is 500. I took a pic of a high sulfur off road pump about a month ago, they are most definitely around. I've read the BP/Amoco pdf spec sheets, and for example they offer BP Diesel Supreme in both versions - on and off road. There is more difference than just the dy in that particular case. The off road version has a slightly higher average cetane index as well as 5000ppm sulfur limit. .



I"ve heard multiple places that running high sulfur diesel in a catalyst-equipped on road diesel would cause problems. They claim it will ruin the cat and possibly compromise other internals. I can't confirm this either way.

Hey Light

I am not sure how old the pump was or what spec sheet from BP or Amoco is that your are making reference to. But the EPA that is produced here at our facility and the entire west coast for that matter has a max sulfur spec off 500 PPM +/- and is classified as 49 state EPA Diesel on/off road. As for the 40 min Cetane index you talking about is just that (an index) the term is a blending term used in our lab for measuring "heat of combustion" which is determined by the EPA. The actual blend will come out higher around 44+/-. Now you could have this double sulfur spec and if so it would be out of one of our central locations such as Ponca City OK, but most diffently not the west coast. Another point about "Cetane". For us to hit the min Cetane dead on for a 80 thousand barrel blend is a job well done the term minimum means just that. If we have any say about it thats what you'll get. The same goes for Octane we try not to give either away for nothing due to increased refining costs.